Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Tuesday, 2 March 2010, in the House of Commons.

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. Queen's recommendation signified. Debate on money resolution (No. 4). Agreed on division (331 to 161). Debate on programme motion (No. 6). Agreed on division (272 to 226). Committee stage debate (fifth day). New clause 22, discussed with new clause 23 and new schedule 1, agreed on question. New clause 24-26 and 37 added to the bill. Amendments made. Third reading debate, agreed to on question and bill passed.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

506 c808-915

Session

2009-10

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage, Third reading and Report stage

Procedure

Programme motions
New clauses
Money resolutions
New schedules
Queen's recommendation

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. As amended in Committee.
Tuesday, 9 February 2010
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Jack Straw | 506 c809 (Link to this contribution) Because it was a later entry into the consideration—that is the truth of it. The measure is none the...

Bob Spink | 506 c809 (Link to this contribution) The regional counting officers would normally be the chief executives of local authorities, so they ...

Show all contributions (161)

Jack Straw | 506 c809 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to respond to this brief debate. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) ask...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c809 (Link to this contribution) With his characteristic skill, the Secretary of State has failed to enlighten the House as to why th...

David Heath | 506 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) I feel a little sorry for the right hon. Member for East Ham (Mr. Timms), who, despite being in the ...

John Redwood | 506 c809 (Link to this contribution) When a Government are as deeply in debt as this Government—when they are building up so much taxpaye...

Jack Straw | 506 c808 (Link to this contribution) Even Homer nodded, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Mr. Timm...

Speaker | 506 c808 (Link to this contribution) I call the right hon. Member for East Ham (Mr. Timms). The right hon. Gentleman looks distinctly qu...

Jack Straw | 506 c816 (Link to this contribution) I shall count them in due course, although the right hon. Gentleman seems to have done the task for ...

John Redwood | 506 c816 (Link to this contribution) We have before us more than 50 pages to consider in the few hours that the Government wish to allot....

Jack Straw | 506 c816 (Link to this contribution) They are certainly being properly considered elsewhere in the House and outside. The questions keep ...

David Winnick | 506 c816 (Link to this contribution) Since the situation has somewhat changed since yesterday, with the admission by Lord Ashcroft—at las...

Lembit Opik | 506 c815-6 (Link to this contribution) It sounds to me that what the Secretary of State is really saying is that, in his judgment, the pre-...

Jack Straw | 506 c816 (Link to this contribution) There is a long-standing debate about how much time we provide for debate on Bills on the Floor of t...

Jack Straw | 506 c810 (Link to this contribution) I will be very happy to write to the right hon. Gentleman about that. The amount is relatively modes...

Jack Straw | 506 c815 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That the Order of 20 October 2009 in the last Session of Parliament (Constitutional R...

Jack Straw | 506 c810 (Link to this contribution) This is about establishing regional counting officers better to co-ordinate the administration of th...

John Redwood | 506 c810 (Link to this contribution) I would like to press my simple factual request. How much extra will the money resolution add? Presu...

Evan Harris | 506 c817 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor will know that I have tabled two very important new clauses on ending discrimina...

Speaker | 506 c817 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I say that although that point is a pertinent on...

Jack Straw | 506 c817 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Speaker for that guidance to the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harri...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) This is the sixth programme motion that we have had for this Bill, which is being taken on the Floor...

David Heath | 506 c818 (Link to this contribution) indicated dissent.

Andrew Dismore | 506 c912-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to say a great deal, but I do want to say something about chapter 4, which deals with ...

David Howarth | 506 c912 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that partial peace offering from the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that that is the s...

Lord Wills | 506 c914-5 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, I shall say a few words in conclusion. This has been a good-spirited Th...

Mark Francois | 506 c912 (Link to this contribution) A few minutes ago, the hon. Gentleman mentioned the debates that we had on the provisions relating t...

David Howarth | 506 c912 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad of that clarification. I am sure that the Minister is too. The big problem with the ...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c912 (Link to this contribution) I just want to make myself clear. As I indicated to the Minister, I have very deep disquiet about ce...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c902-4 (Link to this contribution) I am aware that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. Member for North Swindon ...

Tony Wright | 506 c907-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. In some ways, this should be called the "constitutional highways and byways" ...

David Howarth | 506 c909-11 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with what the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) said about this Bill's be...

Gordon Prentice | 506 c904 (Link to this contribution) What's new then?

Dominic Grieve | 506 c904-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says, "What's new?" I acknowledge that he has a personal approach, which is much ...

David Howarth | 506 c912 (Link to this contribution) I am glad for the final sentence of that intervention. It strikes me as disproportionate to suggest ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c911 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we can.

David Howarth | 506 c911 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady says that we can have such people, and we do have them, but should we? Again, how is t...

Lord Wills | 506 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for those comments, and I pay tribute to her and her colleagues ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c901 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with everything the Minister has just said. May I make it clear that we entirely ac...

David Howarth | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) Another power is available to the Attorney-General and any local authority in that an injunction can...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) Nobody wants to stop Westminster abbey ringing its bells or any of the other things that the Ministe...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c887-8 (Link to this contribution) I remind the hon. Lady that I waited for six and a half hours to speak to the amendments that were t...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c888 (Link to this contribution) I think that we have had sufficient debate on this matter tonight. In view of the time, I will not i...

Speaker | 506 c889 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Sergeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

Speaker | 506 c892 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

Lord Wills | 506 c900-1 (Link to this contribution) Finally, we have reached the end of the Commons stages of the Bill. Since the beginning of its gesta...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) indicated dissent.

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I disagree. People have a right to protest, but laws on harassment and environmenta...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c886 (Link to this contribution) In February 2008, Barbara Tucker—she is well known to us because of the protests that she holds outs...

Julian Lewis | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has just illustrated the point that I have been arguing throughout the debate. She was ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c885-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend touches on an important point that I shall come to in a moment. Let me tell the hon....

Julian Lewis | 506 c886 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is not about banning noise but about giving a power to remove amplifying equipment if,...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c885 (Link to this contribution) I will go through the measures that are available to ensure that such actions can be dealt with if t...

Andrew Dismore | 506 c885 (Link to this contribution) Although we all agree about the problem of loudspeaker noise, one of my concerns is that when we hav...

Julian Lewis | 506 c885 (Link to this contribution) I promise that I shall not keep intervening, but will the Minister explain how any of those measures...

Julian Lewis | 506 c881-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Government for making it possible by their arrangement of the business tonight for us at...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c885 (Link to this contribution) As has been outlined, there are measures in place regarding noise pollution and public order legisla...

Julian Lewis | 506 c885 (Link to this contribution) The noise certainly prevents us from exercising our functions in the W Rooms and the Committee Rooms...

David Howarth | 506 c878 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting reply. Westminster bridge is included, as I have said. Is the idea to be able...

David Howarth | 506 c878-9 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it will be interesting to see whether they still hold that view. The problem for me is whether ...

Andrew Dismore | 506 c879-81 (Link to this contribution) I wish to discuss amendments 24, 25 and 26, which stand in my name on behalf of the Joint Committee ...

David Howarth | 506 c878 (Link to this contribution) Actually, under amendment 10 it is the Speaker who decides that reasonable access has been prevented...

Jack Straw | 506 c863 (Link to this contribution) That is the phrase used in the Parliamentary and other Pensions Act 1987. "Pensions" obviously inclu...

John Butterfill | 506 c863-4 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to say that the legal advisers to the trustees have confirmed that that is an appropria...

Jack Straw | 506 c864 (Link to this contribution) I grateful to the hon. Members for Bournemouth, West (Sir John Butterfill), for North-West Cambridge...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c871 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 2, page 33, line 16, leave out 'section 132 to 138' and insert

David Heath | 506 c859-60 (Link to this contribution) I thought that that was the case. This is a question of who or what we are going to be consistent wi...

Mark Durkan | 506 c860 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that the discretion is unlikely to be used, but may I remind him that we are...

David Heath | 506 c860-1 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make it plain to the hon. Gentleman that I am not talking about the findings. The f...

John Butterfill | 506 c861-3 (Link to this contribution) The trustees are extremely grateful to the Justice Secretary, who has worked with us tirelessly of l...

David Heath | 506 c858-9 (Link to this contribution) There is a slight sense of a work in progress about this group of amendments, which is to be entirel...

Jack Straw | 506 c859 (Link to this contribution) May I take the hon. Gentleman back to his question about the use of the terms "pension or future pen...

Shailesh Vara | 506 c856-8 (Link to this contribution) On this side of the House, and in common with many others, we have been absolutely clear that MPs' p...

Jack Straw | 506 c853-6 (Link to this contribution) It may be convenient for the House if I inform hon. Members that I intend to accept amendments (a) a...

Speaker | 506 c850-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 56 and 58 to 63. Am...

David Heath | 506 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker ...That was my point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and you h...

Jack Straw | 506 c847 (Link to this contribution) It would have been as much of an honour as being Home Secretary, but I will not proceed down that ro...

Jack Straw | 506 c849 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 55, page 24, line 14, at end insert—

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 506 c847 (Link to this contribution) Would the right hon. Gentleman not regard being Secretary of State for Northern Ireland as an honour...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c874 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Gentleman's point but I had hoped that this debate was not adversarial. ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c874 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. I know of no other legislature that would put up with ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c872 (Link to this contribution) Although amendment 2 is the lead amendment, it is to amendment 3, proposed by the Conservatives, tha...

David Heath | 506 c873 (Link to this contribution) I spent rather a large part of my life dealing with the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act in Co...

Speaker | 506 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 8, page 33, line 18, leave out s...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c873-4 (Link to this contribution) If it is the opposite of what some colleagues of mine said some years ago, so be it—this is what we ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c873 (Link to this contribution) No, the hon. Gentleman is nit-picking. The intention of amendment 3—[Interruption.] We are discussin...

David Heath | 506 c873 (Link to this contribution) It is the opposite.

Jack Straw | 506 c834 (Link to this contribution) I will come back to that in more detail in my closing remarks. I now come to the proposals we have ...

Mark Durkan | 506 c833-4 (Link to this contribution) Just to clarify, I fully accept what my right hon. Friend has said about the contribution of the rig...

Jack Straw | 506 c835 (Link to this contribution) Of course it would, but if the monarch were seeking to subvert the constitution, we would know about...

Tony Wright | 506 c835 (Link to this contribution) In the unlikely event that we had a monarch who was seeking to subvert the constitution, would it no...

Jack Straw | 506 c835 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, that paragraph provides an absolute exemption in respect of records relating to the ...

David Howarth | 506 c835 (Link to this contribution) I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that paragraph 3 of new schedule 1 affects not only national...

Jack Straw | 506 c835 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the point the hon. Gentleman makes. If he examines the proposals in new schedule 1, how...

Richard Shepherd | 506 c834-5 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether it is an enigma or not, but the Secretary of State was correct in saying that ...

Jack Straw | 506 c834 (Link to this contribution) When we were discussing freedom of information between 1998 and 2000, it was agreed that records rel...

Gordon Prentice | 506 c834 (Link to this contribution) First, may I ask my friend about the records of the honours scrutiny committee? I understand that no...

Jack Straw | 506 c833 (Link to this contribution) I did not seek clearance directly from any of the bodies in Northern Ireland. I took the advice of m...

Speaker | 506 c829 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 23—Freedom of inform...

John Redwood | 506 c832 (Link to this contribution) Given the extension of freedom of information opportunities, does the Secretary of State believe tha...

Jack Straw | 506 c832 (Link to this contribution) Whether or not that is the case—and I accept that there are some areas involving defence, for instan...

Mark Durkan | 506 c833 (Link to this contribution) I note that my right hon. Friend has referred to the provisions in new schedule 1 that refer directl...

Jack Straw | 506 c832-3 (Link to this contribution) That is a very important point. I have to deal with both parliamentary questions and requests for in...

Richard Shepherd | 506 c831 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged. I appreciate that this is a sensitive area and I welcome the acceptance of 20 years as...

Jack Straw | 506 c829-31 (Link to this contribution) These provisions give effect to the Government's response to the Dacre review of the 30-year rule. T...

David Howarth | 506 c832 (Link to this contribution) What I do not follow is why the argument finished with 30 years. If it is purely about commercial in...

Jack Straw | 506 c845 (Link to this contribution) The reason is that the current situation was never the intention when the Freedom of Information Act...

Lynne Jones | 506 c845 (Link to this contribution) Although the examples given by my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), which I wat...

Jack Straw | 506 c844-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) asked whether the time scale could be comp...

Richard Shepherd | 506 c843-4 (Link to this contribution) I wholly concur with everything that has been said in support of relaxing or expanding freedom of in...

Jack Straw | 506 c846-7 (Link to this contribution) Of course I acted on advice from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—it...

Mark Durkan | 506 c846 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend says that no consultation took place because there was no change, but he told u...

Jack Straw | 506 c846 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to resort to the text of new schedule 1, but my hon. Friend will see that it sets out the...

Mark Durkan | 506 c845 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend clarify whether the exemption will apply only to matters that are directly...

Jack Straw | 506 c847 (Link to this contribution) If that is so, I apologise to the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. All this reminds me that whatev...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 506 c847 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State not accept that as well as the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Secreta...

Gordon Prentice | 506 c836 (Link to this contribution) But there would be a public interest in disclosure if the heir to the throne, or the second in line,...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c836-7 (Link to this contribution) These provisions do commend themselves to Conservative Members, and I greatly welcome the fact that ...

Jack Straw | 506 c836 (Link to this contribution) There is a balance to be struck. My view is that the right balance is encapsulated by the provisions...

David Howarth | 506 c838-9 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the progress that the new clauses and schedules represent, although I resent slightl...

Tony Wright | 506 c837-8 (Link to this contribution) One of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State's many enduring legacies is the introduction of t...

David Howarth | 506 c839-40 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for that response, but surely there should be some evidence about how...

Jack Straw | 506 c839 (Link to this contribution) I can answer that point directly. The review team said that""neither the case for 15 years nor the c...

David Howarth | 506 c840-1 (Link to this contribution) On the substance, the Secretary of State and I simply disagree about whether the exemption is fundam...

Jack Straw | 506 c840 (Link to this contribution) The legislation has been in force for five years, and the section 53 veto power has been exercised o...

Mark Durkan | 506 c841-3 (Link to this contribution) Like other hon. Members, I welcome new clause 22, which includes provisions to reduce the 30-year li...

Jack Straw | 506 c829 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Jack Straw | 506 c824 (Link to this contribution) Methinks my hon. Friend doth protest too much, because I was not saying anything different. Lastly,...

Richard Shepherd | 506 c822-3 (Link to this contribution) I have noticed with a sinking heart that everyone has referred to this as a programme motion. That t...

Lynne Jones | 506 c821 (Link to this contribution) I noticed that the Secretary of State seemed to be having consultations during the speech by the hon...

Bob Spink | 506 c821-2 (Link to this contribution) I, like all other contributors to the debate so far, rise to speak against the programme motion. We ...

Jack Straw | 506 c824 (Link to this contribution) If the right hon. Gentleman will excuse me, I will not give way. My hon. Friend the Member for Birm...

Lynne Jones | 506 c824 (Link to this contribution) I must tell my right hon. Friend that most of the time, I vote for the Government, and I will do so,...

Jack Straw | 506 c823 (Link to this contribution) I urge the programme motion on the House. I understand the House's frustration about the time, but I...

John Redwood | 506 c819-20 (Link to this contribution) I would like to be a little more charitable to the Justice Secretary than the hon. Member for Somert...

Tony Wright | 506 c819 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to agree with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice that there was no gol...

Evan Harris | 506 c820-1 (Link to this contribution) It is not right to be in this position for three reasons. First, in a parliamentary democracy with o...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c818 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is just preparing himself. For the reasons that I have set out, this timetable i...

David Heath | 506 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that we need to wait for a mythical incoming Conservative Government to bring in th...

David Howarth | 506 c875 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Lady, but I do not think there is consensus on the issue, and the ...

Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 506 c875 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. That is one possible solution. Good ideas are now coming forwa...

David Howarth | 506 c876 (Link to this contribution) It applies in the sense that if noise gets entirely out of hand, environmental health standards come...

Julian Lewis | 506 c875 (Link to this contribution) I wish that the hon. Gentleman were right—I really do—but that does not apply to political protests....

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 506 c878 (Link to this contribution) Why would a senior police officer be needed to protect the right of access to this House?

Julian Lewis | 506 c876 (Link to this contribution) Can I tell the hon. Gentleman—not in a partisan, spiteful or exasperated way—that all these alternat...

David Howarth | 506 c876-7 (Link to this contribution) First, the hon. Gentleman seems unwilling to accept the rule of law; he wants to exempt himself from...

Andrew Dismore | 506 c877 (Link to this contribution) I recall that when we discussed policing and protest in Westminster Hall on the basis of my Committe...

David Howarth | 506 c877-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with that, because the existence of the power would be known to both sides. The point...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c878 (Link to this contribution) That was undertaken after discussion with the House authorities, to ensure that we have appropriate ...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c808 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disappoint the Secretary of State. If he had moved a money motion merely to deal with ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady might disagree with the tenor of my remarks, but the implication of her amendment woul...

Speaker | 506 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) May I just point out to the House that there is an error in the text of proposed amendment (a) to am...

Lord Blunkett | 506 c874 (Link to this contribution) I have enormous sympathy with the hon. Lady's points. How could I not, as I have made them in the pa...

Lord Swire | 506 c874 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware of any other legislature in the world that would allow the chaos—the unregul...

Jack Straw | 506 c831-2 (Link to this contribution) I have cited large-scale infrastructure projects and procurement. I cannot immediately think of any ...

Gordon Prentice | 506 c823 (Link to this contribution) I, too, shall vote against the programme motion. There is simply not enough time for us properly to ...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c887 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is defective, and would have consequences that the hon. Members for Epping Forest and ...

David Heath | 506 c878 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may not recall this, as I do not think that he was a Member of the House at the time,...

Dominic Grieve | 506 c911-2 (Link to this contribution) I want to make two points to the hon. Gentleman that he may agree with. First, part of the Bill deal...

Lord Hanson of Flint | 506 c884-5 (Link to this contribution) We have had, as usual, a very lively—and in part noisy—debate about these issues. I shall explain to...

Lord Swire | 506 c875 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who is being very indulgent in giving way, makes an extremely good point: many who m...

Subjects

Access

Disclosure of information

Contracts

Demonstrations

Costs

Allowances

Audio equipment

Constitutional and administrative law

Freedom of information

Exemptions

Northern Ireland