UK Parliament / Open data

Coroners and Justice Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 9 November 2009, in the House of Commons.
Coroners and Justice Bill. Programme motion (No. 4) on proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments and any subsequent stages. Agreed to on division (282 votes to 213). Lords amendments considered. Government amendment (a) made in lieu of Lords amendment 66. Lords amendments 3 to 54, 56 to 58, 60 to 65, 67 to 118, 120, 122 to 215, 217 to 235, 237, 238 and 240 to 244 agreed to, with Commons privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 12, 14, 28, 54, 131, 145, 149, 150 and 185. Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 1, 2, 55, 59, 119, 121, 216, 236 and 239. Reasons reported and agreed to. Message to the Lords to communicate said reasons, with the Bill and amendments.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
499 c46-130, (corrigendum) 338;499 c46-130 
Session
2008-09
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Lords amendments
Procedure
Programme motions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Coroners and Justice Bill. Lords amendments. Explanatory Notes Bill 160-EN also published.
Thursday, 5 November 2009
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Jack Straw | 499 c74 (Link to this contribution) Provided that the House understands that I shall vote against it.
Speaker | 499 c100 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendment 119, and Government motion...

Show all contributions (226)
Speaker | 499 c51 (Link to this contribution) I draw the attention of the House to the fact that financial privilege is involved in amendments 12,...
Claire Ward | 499 c96 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman and I are clearly not going to agree on the issue, and unfortun...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c95 (Link to this contribution) That is not what I was saying. I was saying that when there is a cocktail of events—in the case I ci...
Claire Ward | 499 c100 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 59.
David Howarth | 499 c96 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely why it is important that if there is to be a subsection 6(c), it refers to 4(a), a...
Claire Ward | 499 c96 (Link to this contribution) That is why we are ensuring that there is seamlessness between the subsections with the words "thing...
Edward Leigh | 499 c101 (Link to this contribution) Let there be no mistake: people who stir up violence and hatred against homosexuals are completely w...
Claire Ward | 499 c101 (Link to this contribution) The House is not attacking free speech. It is clear that people retain their right to freedom of spe...
Claire Ward | 499 c100-1 (Link to this contribution) In inviting the House to reject the Lords amendments, we are seeking to complete unfinished business...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c94 (Link to this contribution) That is the whole point and I am sorry that the Lord Chancellor somehow cannot understand it. The wh...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 499 c94 (Link to this contribution) Leaving aside the example of drunkenness that has been given, as we are talking about sexual infidel...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c94 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman sums it up exactly. Somebody snaps and loses control, and whether or not a circum...
Jack Straw | 499 c94 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Lady's concerns and this is an inherently difficult issue, but let me sa...
Claire Ward | 499 c94 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) has suggested that this is essentially abo...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c94-5 (Link to this contribution) My reading of clause 45(6)(c) does not match the comment that the Minister has just made about being...
Claire Ward | 499 c95 (Link to this contribution) The partial defence for loss of control exists on the basis that there will be certain sets of trigg...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c95 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. At the risk of taking up more of her time, I point out...
Claire Ward | 499 c95 (Link to this contribution) I completely disagree with the hon. and learned Gentleman. The judge and indeed juries are quite cap...
David Howarth | 499 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) One of the most important aspects of the jury system is that the jury gives no reasons, so we never ...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c92-3 (Link to this contribution) I think that my right hon. and hon. Friends wish to contribute to the debate, as perhaps do some Lab...
David Howarth | 499 c89 (Link to this contribution) Precisely, but there is still the judge saying those words to the jury, and it is for the jury to de...
David Howarth | 499 c88-9 (Link to this contribution) First, I agree with what the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said about this b...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c89 (Link to this contribution) Are the Government not saying that the judge must direct the jury that it must disregard questions o...
Speaker | 499 c88 (Link to this contribution) Order. I realise that the hon. Gentleman has some knowledge of these matters to contribute to the de...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c88 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), but I wish to bring my speech to ...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c93 (Link to this contribution) What I have been totally unconvinced about tonight is why this particular motivation and provocation...
Jack Straw | 499 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) I was racking my brains on this, and got a bit of approval from those on the Liberal Democrat Benche...
Speaker | 499 c86 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman, but I feel that I ought to intervene ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c86-7 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said, from a sedentary position, that I was not referring to the defendant. Of course I...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c87 (Link to this contribution) What my hon. and learned Friend has said is, in fact, the considered view of the Law Commission, whi...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c87 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. Listening to the Minister, I began to think that ...
Claire Ward | 499 c85 (Link to this contribution) The circumstances are quite different. Perhaps the right hon. Lady is suggesting that when somebody ...
Speaker | 499 c85 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady will have to wait a little longer, because I call Mr. Dominic Grieve.
Dominic Grieve | 499 c85-6 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The first problem is that this is the first opportunity that we have...
Claire Ward | 499 c87 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can enlighten the hon. and learned Gentleman. Section 3.144 of the Law Commission's report...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) It is the Minister who is being selective. If she turns the page, she will see the precise exception...
David Winnick | 499 c88 (Link to this contribution) Even if the hon. and learned Gentleman does not accept the Government's view, there are pretty good ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c107-8 (Link to this contribution) I would be more reassured if the Government were taking the public order legislation problems that h...
Gerald Howarth | 499 c108 (Link to this contribution) In the absence of this protection that my hon. and learned Friend and I both support, is it not the ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c108-9 (Link to this contribution) It is quite plain that the way in which public order legislation has been applied needs to be review...
David Leslie Taylor | 499 c109-11 (Link to this contribution) There is indeed a strong sense of déjà vu about this debate, given that it is the fourth time that w...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c108 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. The other factor that is worth bearing in mind is that as this debate h...
Mark Pritchard | 499 c108 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend touches on the important point of precedent, and we have already seen tha...
David Leslie Taylor | 499 c111-2 (Link to this contribution) There is a risk of that—I am not sure that there is any evidence that it is happening yet—depending ...
Mark Pritchard | 499 c111 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that without protection the Bill could be enforced in areas...
David Leslie Taylor | 499 c111 (Link to this contribution) I am not a lawyer, but merely a humble accountant, if that is not an oxymoron. I cannot explain that...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c111 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman tell me whether he has any comprehension of how merely writing a letter to a...
Claire Ward | 499 c105 (Link to this contribution) I am going to proceed, and then the hon. Gentleman will have a better opportunity to express his vie...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c105-6 (Link to this contribution) We are certainly revisiting an old topic. I rather disagree with the Minister in her view about the ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c106 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I heard from a sedentary position the hon. Member for Oxford, ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c107 (Link to this contribution) The way I read the saving clause that Lord Waddington drafted—
Evan Harris | 499 c106-7 (Link to this contribution) If I catch Mr. Deputy Speaker's eye, I will respond and show how much the hon. and learned Gentleman...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c107 (Link to this contribution) I must say, it is not only the way I read it, but any sensible person who gives the words their plai...
Claire Ward | 499 c107 (Link to this contribution) On the contrary, this provision gives comfort to those who wish to incite hatred or to be threatenin...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c104 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her customary grace in giving way. I have said in this House that...
Claire Ward | 499 c104 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady is not entitled to express her views on matters only because she is a Member of ...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c103 (Link to this contribution) I probably do have the right, and I regularly use this place to exercise it. But those who do not en...
Claire Ward | 499 c103 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I do not agree with the right hon. Lady. One does not need parliamentary privilege ...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 499 c105 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister realise that, if the Bill is passed, it will become more and more difficult in thi...
Claire Ward | 499 c104-5 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to find out whether I wish to have a religious and philoso...
Mark Pritchard | 499 c104 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; she is being very gracious. In order to have clarity, ...
Claire Ward | 499 c104 (Link to this contribution) In order to fall foul of the Bill, the person's words would have to be threatening and their behavio...
Mark Pritchard | 499 c104 (Link to this contribution) The public record speaks for itself on my position on protecting and standing up for the rights of h...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c101 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the Minister, and the argument that everything is all right is one to w...
Claire Ward | 499 c101-2 (Link to this contribution) There is nothing to prevent freedom of expression, and many of the incidents to which the hon. and l...
Evan Harris | 499 c102 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for what the Minister says, and I hope that she will join me in continuing to point to...
Claire Ward | 499 c103 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Lady says that it is for the avoidance of doubt, but I am quite sure that in other ci...
Claire Ward | 499 c103 (Link to this contribution) The legislation before us is not the appropriate place in which to put the police guidance to which ...
Gerald Howarth | 499 c102 (Link to this contribution) The Minister refers to the religious hatred provision, but she will be aware that it contained a fur...
Claire Ward | 499 c102 (Link to this contribution) I wish to ensure that we deal with the legislation before us. What is before us is an opportunity to...
Claire Ward | 499 c102 (Link to this contribution) And the hon. Gentleman will recall that the Government did not approve the extent of the Lords amend...
Evan Harris | 499 c118 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that any of these people would be prosecuted under the law before us, but they clearl...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c119-20 (Link to this contribution) First, may I say to the Minister that neither she nor her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, ...
Mark Durkan | 499 c117 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has just acknowledged that in the example he has given, hatred had been stirred u...
Evan Harris | 499 c117 (Link to this contribution) What matters is whether the mob stirred up thinks it is, because that is what causes the damage. It ...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 499 c118 (Link to this contribution) But surely the hon. Gentleman understands that this is the dilemma that preachers face. Here was a p...
Evan Harris | 499 c117-8 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that that is clear, but I also feel strongly that whether or not that is the case, i...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c117 (Link to this contribution) I do try to listen to an argument before I intervene, and I think that those words would be caught i...
Mark Durkan | 499 c117 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman not agree that the example he has given is of people not talking about the a...
Evan Harris | 499 c117 (Link to this contribution) That is the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, but it is not apparent in the wording of the ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c116 (Link to this contribution) I do not think they would benefit from the saving clause, because their language would be threatenin...
Mark Durkan | 499 c115 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has touched on an attempt to answer the basic question that I was going to ask hi...
Evan Harris | 499 c116 (Link to this contribution) This offence has not existed for long while the free speech saving clause has been in place, so I do...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c114 (Link to this contribution) What the hon. Gentleman says may be true, and the menace may be section 5 of the Public Order Act, b...
Evan Harris | 499 c114 (Link to this contribution) It would be much less, because the police clearly would not investigate in the outrageous cases abou...
David Leslie Taylor | 499 c114 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may have heard that I anticipated his bringing up this point. I think that his po...
Evan Harris | 499 c113-4 (Link to this contribution) It is good to be back on this subject. I always predicate my remarks on these issues with the words ...
David Leslie Taylor | 499 c112-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I have not. We have not heard any convincing arguments at all. We have seen some smoke and mirro...
Mark Durkan | 499 c112 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has given a number of examples—albeit from different legislation—to support his conce...
Claire Ward | 499 c121 (Link to this contribution) I have already explained that it is completely unnecessary to provide such a clause. We do not provi...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c121 (Link to this contribution) Quite apart from the fact that the Minister's remarks are rather offensive in terms of the views of ...
Claire Ward | 499 c120-1 (Link to this contribution) I perfectly appreciate what the right hon. Lady is saying, but we heard misconceptions about how the...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c120 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, but the point has almost passed. She was referring to...
Claire Ward | 499 c120 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. There is therefore no need for this saving provision on freedom of expression. ...
Claire Ward | 499 c120 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, he is capable of doing so. It is easily possible to outline both the existing provisions an...
Claire Ward | 499 c120 (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting debate. However hard I try to make it absolutely clear to the right hon...
Speaker | 499 c123 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Claire Ward | 499 c122-3 (Link to this contribution) As I stated, we are considering the responses from stakeholders. We will consider that issue, and th...
Claire Ward | 499 c122 (Link to this contribution) I shall make a little more progress. Those incidents of purported over-zealous policing have probab...
Evan Harris | 499 c122 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for re-confirming what the Government said in response to the Joint Co...
Claire Ward | 499 c122 (Link to this contribution) I want to deal with a few other issues. I shall give way to the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abi...
Jack Straw | 499 c53 (Link to this contribution) Section 18 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 also allows the use of intercept evide...
Lord Beith | 499 c53 (Link to this contribution) There is another complication to the problem, which is not just awareness of the dangers, but certai...
Jack Straw | 499 c53-4 (Link to this contribution) I accept that, and in our debates about intercept some people have taken the view that we should jus...
Elfyn Llwyd | 499 c54 (Link to this contribution) In earlier debates, I put to the Secretary of State the possibility of introducing public interest i...
Jack Straw | 499 c52 (Link to this contribution) In a sense, my hon. Friend makes my point. There is potential for any tribunal—with a small "t"—to g...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 499 c52 (Link to this contribution) This assessment must have been made so will the Secretary of State please tell us how many inquests—...
Jack Straw | 499 c52 (Link to this contribution) As far as I know—if I am wrong, I will try to correct the record before the debate is concluded—ther...
David Howarth | 499 c53 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State also confirm that clause 13, as originally drafted, allowed the use of i...
Jack Straw | 499 c51 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments concerns an extremely important issue. It relates to the question of whethe...
Graham Allen | 499 c52 (Link to this contribution) For those of us who are not distinguished lawyers and who come to the debate as lay people, will the...
Jack Straw | 499 c51 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.
Speaker | 499 c51 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendment 2, and Government motion t...
David Howarth | 499 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) In what I have said so far, I have spoken solely about the proposal of the hon. Member for Hendon, w...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 499 c68 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's argument, but I am not at all clear whether his stricture...
David Howarth | 499 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) That is the type of case I had in mind. If right hon. and hon. Members have different examples in mi...
Richard Shepherd | 499 c67 (Link to this contribution) I am reminded of a former Foreign Secretary in the ABC case of the late '70s, who felt that he had b...
David Howarth | 499 c67 (Link to this contribution) I believe that my right hon. Friend is talking about cases that never start, but I am talking about ...
Lord Beith | 499 c67 (Link to this contribution) I have the utmost respect for my hon. Friend and his judgment, but I actually think he is wrong abou...
David Howarth | 499 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) I fully take the hon. Gentleman's point. The whole purpose of investigations is to make state offici...
David Howarth | 499 c66 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal first with the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), which I s...
Graham Allen | 499 c66 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman also say that deaths at the hands of state officials sometimes do not take ...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes his point. The Rodney case was a police operation to try to bust a drug g...
Jenny Willott | 499 c64 (Link to this contribution) So far there has been only one case to which this relates—the one that the hon. Gentleman mentioned ...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c64 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend knows far more about Northern Ireland than I do, and I would certainly pray in aid hi...
Frank Dobson | 499 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is a lawyer and understands these things rather better than I do. Does he share the c...
Jack Straw | 499 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I must press my hon. Friend. He is coming to some clear conclusions about one option...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c63 (Link to this contribution) As I have indicated, there are other options. We simply do not know enough about the Rodney case to ...
Mark Durkan | 499 c64 (Link to this contribution) In relation to the experience of inquiries under the Inquiries Act 2005 in Northern Ireland, were no...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c64 (Link to this contribution) I think my right hon. Friend is putting a false prospectus before the House in this respect. My main...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c63 (Link to this contribution) We run the risk of rehearsing debates that we had before on secret inquests. The starting point is t...
Jack Straw | 499 c63 (Link to this contribution) I cannot allow my hon. Friend to gloss over this issue. There is no question of these proceedings be...
Claire Ward | 499 c78-9 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The history of the partial defence of provocation has led to a commo...
Speaker | 499 c78 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. We have moved on to other business, and I must ask hon....
Claire Ward | 499 c78 (Link to this contribution) The Government cannot accept the amendment passed in the other place to remove the sexual infidelity...
Speaker | 499 c78 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's assumption is correct. On the previous occasion we got into a difficulty by acc...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c79 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will be aware that, only two weeks ago, there was a case in which a jury came to preci...
Speaker | 499 c74 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman anticipates me. The only way in which amendment (a) in lieu can be put to t...
Speaker | 499 c78 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendment (a) in lieu of Lords ...
David Heath | 499 c78 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We had an unsatisfactory end to the previous debate due to ...
Claire Ward | 499 c78 (Link to this contribution) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Claire Ward): I beg to move, That this House...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c73 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, I would like to move amendment (a) in lieu.
Jack Straw | 499 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, I wish to reply to the debate. I thank the right hon. and learned Memb...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c73 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have to express some amazement that this has happened. If...
Jack Straw | 499 c73 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I had no intention of doing that. I think that t...
Speaker | 499 c73 (Link to this contribution) I was all too aware that that was the consequence, but once the Justice Secretary spoke until 6.33 p...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 499 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) I will be very brief—briefer than I would otherwise be—one reason being that like many Members of th...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 499 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) I must first correct the Secretary of State. He said that I was a member of the Chilcot committee, b...
Lord Beith | 499 c71 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would agree that neither of us wishes to exclude th...
Lord Howard of Lympne | 499 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and as the right hon. Gentleman will know, we have today been invited by the Home Secretary...
Jack Straw | 499 c63 (Link to this contribution) I am listening to my hon. Friend with care. Aside from the inadvertent impact that the amendments wo...
Jack Straw | 499 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) None of us is comfortable about departing in any case from jury inquests. I hope my hon. Friend will...
Robert Marshall-Andrews | 499 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend not understand that it is a question of scale? In any jury system there ar...
Jack Straw | 499 c59 (Link to this contribution) My hon. and learned Friend is an infinitely more experienced criminal practitioner than ever I was—I...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Secretary of State's comments, but I shall bring my remarks to a close. It seems t...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall be brief. I repeat what I said: I acknowledge that the Government have a problem. In the oth...
Jack Straw | 499 c61 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend any criticism of the hon. and learned Gentleman's drafting of his amendment in lieu...
Jack Straw | 499 c58 (Link to this contribution) I shall just finish my comments on Lords amendment 128, if I may. I shall then give way to my hon. a...
Jack Straw | 499 c57-8 (Link to this contribution) I have been up hill and down dale on this, as I know others have. I thought that clause 12 was a way...
Jack Straw | 499 c54 (Link to this contribution) Public interest immunity certificates are used to withhold from a jury information that would otherw...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c54 (Link to this contribution) Schedule 1(3)(2) to the Inquiries Act states:""The coroner need not suspend the investigation if the...
Jack Straw | 499 c54 (Link to this contribution) With great respect to my hon. Friend, I think that the idea of inquiries is that they should comply ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) As I shall make clear in a moment, I am conscious that the Secretary of State has a real problem, an...
Jack Straw | 499 c55-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it does. Typically, the intelligence agencies or the police have available to them intercept ev...
David Howarth | 499 c56 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State saying the following? On the one side, there is some risk—although presuma...
Jack Straw | 499 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) The issue of whether and, if so, how intercept evidence can be used in our trial system has exercise...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c57 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I am not intervening at the wrong moment, but the Secretary of State may have noticed fr...
Claire Ward | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) It is on page 65, paragraph 3.143. I am happy to take further interventions as I proceed through my ...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) I have the Law Commission's report here.
Claire Ward | 499 c81 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can refer to page 65 of the Law Commission report. It states:""In Smith (Morgan), Lord Hof...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c81 (Link to this contribution) The Minister knows that the Law Commission's original proposals were cherry-picked by the Government...
Claire Ward | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) Of the Law Commission report. Now perhaps I can move on—
Claire Ward | 499 c81 (Link to this contribution) I will take some more interventions in a few moments, but I want to proceed a little further. The s...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c81 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Lady who has given way very generously. I am not a lawyer, so perhaps we c...
Claire Ward | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) I think that a very important principle is at stake here: whether or not this House believes—it has ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) I still do not understand why the defence should not be used successfully. Why does the Minister wis...
Claire Ward | 499 c79 (Link to this contribution) However, there is now a commonly held belief that cases exist in which that defence has been used su...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c79 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is slightly misunderstanding my point, and that might be my responsibility. The point t...
Claire Ward | 499 c79 (Link to this contribution) The general issue around provocation, and the change of defence, has been accepted by both Houses. T...
Viscount Hailsham | 499 c79 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady will know that, in 2004, the Law Commission published its report "Partial Defences to ...
Claire Ward | 499 c79 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman is right to raise that recent case, but the reality is that there is ...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) This is not just my view. Perhaps the Minister would like to be candid with the House about what the...
Claire Ward | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) Frankly, we do not think that it is appropriate, in this day and age, for a man to be able to say th...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) Let us just take a quick example. A woman is abused by her husband over a long period, at the end of...
Claire Ward | 499 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) I am going to make some progress; I will come back to the hon. and learned Gentleman. In modernisin...
Claire Ward | 499 c84 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman would therefore leave in some doubt whether there were circumstances in which sex...
David Howarth | 499 c84 (Link to this contribution) Under my amendment, all such issues would be for the jury to decide. I find it difficult to believe ...
Claire Ward | 499 c84 (Link to this contribution) That is not what I am saying. There are circumstances—the prime example is of a wife seeing her husb...
David Howarth | 499 c84 (Link to this contribution) The Minister cannot have it both ways. First she says that my amendment catches more cases of sexual...
Claire Ward | 499 c84 (Link to this contribution) The example does work, because the hon. Gentleman's amendment would still allow sexual infidelity to...
David Howarth | 499 c84 (Link to this contribution) But that is the whole point of the words,""where D acted principally out of"." The Minister's examp...
Claire Ward | 499 c83 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress and deal with a couple of other issues that have been raised in the deb...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c85 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for generously giving way to me a second time. I doubt that I am the only Mem...
Claire Ward | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) I do not for a moment deny that passions will be incredibly high when such personal relationships ar...
Anne Main | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) Does not the Minister accept that the sexual bond between two people gives them a greater closeness ...
Claire Ward | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it is a matter for me to set out the circumstances; it would depend on the context, w...
Elfyn Llwyd | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) May I tell the Minister about a case I was involved in not so long ago? A person was bragging about ...
Claire Ward | 499 c83 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way for the very last time, as I need to make some progress.
Claire Ward | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. Of course we do not believe that fidelity, however desirable,...
David Winnick | 499 c82 (Link to this contribution) At a time when we are very concerned about so-called "honour killings", which in no way involve hono...
Jeremy Wright | 499 c83 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. May I bring the Minister back to the wording of the Bill? Surely the difficulty here ...
David Howarth | 499 c96-7 (Link to this contribution) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Question put forthwith, That the Question be n...
Dominic Grieve | 499 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) There is a point that I should perhaps have made. Ironically, I actually think the impact of these p...
David Leslie Taylor | 499 c103 (Link to this contribution) It is true that the section would not change the threshold of the offence, but that is not at all th...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c94 (Link to this contribution) So, if a woman taunts her husband about her sexual activity with a third party and he, in his fury, ...
Claire Ward | 499 c105 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is not correct. A person would have to intend their words to be threa...
Evan Harris | 499 c116-7 (Link to this contribution) What if I say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the wording was, "These gays had better keep th...
Evan Harris | 499 c115 (Link to this contribution) I am an eternal optimist, and I believe that we should aim for the right legislation, not create the...
Speaker | 499 c73 (Link to this contribution) I have to inform the House that it is not possible under the terms of the programme order for the ho...
Claire Ward | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) The court may of course take into account whether there has been abuse, as well as other factors, bu...
Ann Widdecombe | 499 c102 (Link to this contribution) It is for the avoidance of doubt.
Andrew Dismore | 499 c64 (Link to this contribution) That is a real fear. My right hon. Friend rightly said that the de Menezes case was dealt with under...
Mark Durkan | 499 c59 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor has told us that he is trying to square an extraordinarily difficult circle. He ...
Claire Ward | 499 c80 (Link to this contribution) The Law Commission has said that such cases should not be left to the jury. Perhaps the hon. and lea...
Claire Ward | 499 c83 (Link to this contribution) We need to look at the reality and at what we believe is acceptable. I have to say again that it can...
Edward Leigh | 499 c106 (Link to this contribution) Is it not interesting that the Minister never actually discussed Lord Waddington's amendment? We all...
Andrew Dismore | 499 c62-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to the amendments in lieu that are in my name and those of other Members who have sign...
Subjects
Admissibility of evidence
Coroners
Homicide
Freedom of expression
Homophobia
Legislation
Coroners and Justice Bill 2008-09
Link
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