Coroners and Justice Bill. Lords report stage second day.
Coroners and Justice Bill
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
713 c981-1043; 713 c1059-94
Session
2008-09
Legislative stage
Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Proceeding contributions
Lord Redesdale | 713 c981-3 (Link to this contribution)
I shall confine my remarks to Amendments 37, 52 and 53. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew,...
Lord Redesdale | 713 c981 (Link to this contribution)
37: After Clause 27, insert the following new Clause—
"Amendment of Treasure Act 1996
After section ...
Show all contributions (150)
Lord Howarth of Newport | 713 c983-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, for tabling the amendments, to which I ha...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 713 c1016 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, nothing that I say should affect the unanimity of the verdict that Members of this House h...
Lord Goodhart | 713 c1013 (Link to this contribution)
I mentioned both options in my speech. I do not think that there was much difference between them bu...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c1016 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I also add non-legal support to my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd. I was enormously i...
Lord Condon | 713 c1016 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as a former police commissioner, I find myself completely at ease with and supportive of t...
Baroness Warnock | 713 c1015-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise briefly simply so that there should be some voice other than the voice of the law i...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 713 c1015 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support this very important amendment. I say to the Government that there cannot have been m...
Lord Pannick | 713 c1014-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. The fear of being perceived to be soft on crime, the jurisp...
Lord Woolf | 713 c1014 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hesitate to add to the eloquence that has been advanced in favour of the amendment, but ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c1013 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I put my name to this amendment and strongly support what has already been said both by th...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1017 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not wish to repeat what my noble professional colleague said, so I will address a dif...
Baroness Murphy | 713 c1017 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I repeat what I said in Committee in strong support for the amendment. I am particularly c...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 713 c1019 (Link to this contribution)
That is what I said. The prosecuting counsel would have a role as a challenger of fact.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1019 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord accept that the prosecuting counsel could certainly challenge the facts from whi...
Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 713 c1020 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, unlike most of the speakers in the debate, I have never studied criminal law, but I have c...
Lord Morris of Aberavon | 713 c1019-20 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, apologise for missing the earlier part of the debate, but in the summer I read the...
Lord Stewartby | 713 c1018 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this is not a subject to which I gave much thought before this afternoon. I was not clear ...
Lord Low of Dalston | 713 c1017-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, strongly support the amendment. I must apologise to the House and to my noble and ...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 713 c1019 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I draw attention to the practicalities of the amendment and to the consequences of the tri...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 713 c1018-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my brief intervention from these Benches will be on the same lines as those of my noble fr...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1007 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 54 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. Clause 42 ...
Lord Bach | 713 c1006-7 (Link to this contribution)
51: Before Schedule 9, insert the following new Schedule—
"Medical adviser and Deputy medical advise...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1007 (Link to this contribution)
54: Clause 42, page 23, line 15, at end insert—
"( ) In circumstances where an interested person wil...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1001 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the deaths and injuries which occur on military service are outwith the experience of almo...
Lord Henley | 713 c1001 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I also offer my support to my noble friend. As always, she has made a strong case for the ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c1000-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. I have personal experience of coroner training, having und...
Lord Bach | 713 c1005-6 (Link to this contribution)
49: After Clause 33, insert the following new Clause—
"Medical Adviser and Deputy Medical Advisers t...
Lord Bach | 713 c1005 (Link to this contribution)
45: Schedule 8, page 141, line 6, at end insert—
"A reference in paragraph 5 or 6 to paying expenses...
Baroness Fookes | 713 c1003 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am deeply grateful to have received support in this short debate from such notable Membe...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c1001-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I understand and support the desire of the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, to ensure that the...
Lord Goodhart | 713 c1012-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there is a famous song in Gilbert and Sullivan’s "The Mikado" about making the punishment ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1013 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord support my comment that the words in the amendment are fine except for, "a reaso...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1008 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. Our concern is, first, to put the ma...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c1007-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Clause 42(2) sets out a comprehensive list of persons who may be designated as interested ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1008-9 (Link to this contribution)
56: Before Clause 46, insert the following new Clause—
"Murder: extenuating circumstances
(1) In a t...
Lord Bach | 713 c1008 (Link to this contribution)
55: Clause 43, page 25, line 23, at end insert "(read without regard to any order under section 380 ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1010 (Link to this contribution)
I am having trouble with a small point, about which the noble and learned Lord knows. I am not happy...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1009-10 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there was a remarkable debate in Committee on this amendment. All but one of the 18 noble ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1011-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not always agree with the noble and learned Lord who has just spoken but on this occa...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1010-1 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the noble Lord and I have the same point in mind. The test that I have put in the amend...
Lord Henley | 713 c996-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I briefly intervene to say on behalf of my late noble friend Lord Kingsland that we, too, ...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c996 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I simply give some support, because Amendments 46 and 48 are in my name and that of my nob...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c995-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his comments and in particular for replacing "...
Lord Bach | 713 c995 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 46 and 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham....
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c994 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for the olive branch, even if it is eventually cut off the tree.
Firs...
Lord Bach | 713 c994 (Link to this contribution)
41: Schedule 5, page 134, line 15, leave out "(criminal conduct)" and insert "(or section 70 of the ...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c993 (Link to this contribution)
One does not want to increase the number of persons who can authorise entry, search and seizure, but...
Lord Bach | 713 c993-4 (Link to this contribution)
I understand that with this group of amendments, which I am grateful to the noble and learned Barone...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 713 c993 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I respectfully suggest to the House that the case put forward by the noble and learned Bar...
Baroness Fookes | 713 c999 (Link to this contribution)
44: Schedule 8, page 139, line 30, at end insert—
"( ) One Deputy Chief Coroner shall be appointed w...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c999 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for this concession. It was a very important issue that was ver...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c1000 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wish to express my firm support for the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, in what she has sai...
Baroness Fookes | 713 c999-1000 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment would replace two amendments that I moved in Committee and that did not find...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c998 (Link to this contribution)
43: Schedule 7, page 138, line 43, at end insert—
"( ) A reference in this paragraph to meeting or r...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c998-9 (Link to this contribution)
Paragraph 9 of Schedule 7 provides for regulations to make provision for or in connection with meeti...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c999 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for these amendments, which, so far as I can see, exactly meet corone...
Lord Bach | 713 c997 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords who have spoken. Under Clause 32(4)(b), the Chief Corone...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c997-8 (Link to this contribution)
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and I also thank the Minister. Link...
Lord Bach | 713 c990 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, but we hope, as I am sure does he, that Report stage will finish th...
Lord Henley | 713 c990 (Link to this contribution)
I have an important question about timing. It has been put to me that the usual channels are concern...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c991 (Link to this contribution)
38: Schedule 5, page 132, line 35, leave out from "Part" to end of line 40 and insert "may authorise...
Lord Redesdale | 713 c990-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his help at this stage and in our consultations to look at this m...
Lord Henley | 713 c992-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to comment briefly on the amendment and to say how grateful we all are to the noble...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c991-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 38 to 40, to which I speak, are new amendments, as is Amendment 50, which is co...
Lord Elystan-Morgan | 713 c987-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wholeheartedly approve of the thrust of these amendments. It is surely entirely laudable...
Lord Henley | 713 c988 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Trumpington was quite right to draw the House’s attention to the work...
Lord Bach | 713 c988-90 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the House is well served by Members who are in the Archaeological All-Party Group. They se...
Lord Bach | 713 c1033-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 57, 58 and 59 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, deal with the...
Earl of Listowel | 713 c1031-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have my name attached to the amendments, and I strongly support them. It is hard to foll...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c1032-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think we all feel horror at gangland killings by young people, but one has to put them t...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1033 (Link to this contribution)
I am afraid I do not. I have a great deal of sympathy with the argument that is being adduced, but i...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1033 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment. I remind your Lordships of what I said on the previ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1030 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think the noble Earl has misunderstood.
Earl of Listowel | 713 c1030 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have misunderstood; I apologise and withdraw what I said.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1031 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Earl: it is quite difficult to get one’s head around exactly what t...
Baroness Murphy | 713 c1031 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support this amendment. The problem is to do with so-called normal children. The noble L...
Earl of Listowel | 713 c1030 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg the noble Lord’s pardon, but are the Government themselves not introducing in this c...
Baroness Murphy | 713 c1021 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. I think that he will find that it is the jury that finds for...
Lord Goodhart | 713 c1021 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry also to interrupt the noble Lord to make a brief point. Does he accept that, in the case ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1021-2 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I accept what the noble Lord says and, so far as the noble Baroness is concerned, we are about ...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1022 (Link to this contribution)
Do I understand that the noble Lord is arguing that what I propose is fine? Would he support the pro...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1022 (Link to this contribution)
All I am saying at this stage is that the noble Lord is right to point out the difficulty of underst...
Lord Pannick | 713 c1022 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord accept that there has been consultation on this issue for the past 20 years and ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1022-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am talking about public consultation on this proposal and I do not believe that there has been tha...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1020 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has made his case in characteristically eloquent t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1020 (Link to this contribution)
Does the noble Lord recollect that, when murder was a capital offence, a jury was able to give a rec...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1021 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I do recall that.
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1029-30 (Link to this contribution)
57: Clause 46, page 27, line 28, at end insert—
"(1ZA) A person ("D") who kills or is party to the k...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1030 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendments 57, 58 and 59 would add to Clause 46 another category of persons to whom the pa...
Lord Bach | 713 c1026-7 (Link to this contribution)
I come back to my noble friend’s comment. Of course I welcome this debate, which is part of the wide...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1027 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we had a remarkable debate in Committee on this amendment, and have had an even more remar...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1030 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, is there in any legislation the provision for developmental immaturity? I would be very in...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1030 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am unaware that there is any direct precedent for this amendment. However, we are seekin...
Lord Clinton-Davis | 713 c1026 (Link to this contribution)
Is not the real truth that, whatever the time and whatever the circumstances, my noble friend would ...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c1026 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I remind noble Lords of the statement in the Companion on the interruption of speeches. At...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1023-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is attached to the amendment and I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hunt...
Lord Bach | 713 c1024-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for moving the amendment. I als...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1036 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 60 seeks to add to Clause 48 the words "caused by gross provocation" as an explanation of ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1035 (Link to this contribution)
60: Clause 48, page 28, line 31, at end insert "caused by gross provocation"
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1035 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to other noble Lords for their contribu...
Lord Bach | 713 c1039-41 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 61, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, would remove Cl...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c1041-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I suppose that I should be grateful to the noble and learned Lord for saying that the amen...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1036-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my amendment is grouped with this one, but I shall first address the Conservative amendmen...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1039 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have already indicated to your Lordships that I do not consider the present common law d...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1059 (Link to this contribution)
62: Clause 49, page 29, line 32, leave out paragraph (c)
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1042 (Link to this contribution)
61: Leave out Clause 48
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1042 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wish to take the opinion of the House on this amendment. However, if it does not succeed...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 713 c1065-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 65, I draw your Lordships’ attention to its being grouped with governm...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 713 c1064-5 (Link to this contribution)
65: After Clause 55, insert the following new Clause—
"Extension of extra-territorial application
(1...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1062-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Minister seems to suggest that we are living in the past. That is not true. We say tha...
Lord Bach | 713 c1061-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 62 would remove the subsection which provides that, when determining whether a l...
Lord Henley | 713 c1068 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may intervene at this stage. It suddenly occurred to me that we are at Report wi...
Baroness D'Souza | 713 c1067-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the background to this vital issue has been set out with great eloquence by the noble Lord...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c1061 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the amendment. As the House knows, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, that th...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 713 c1061 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for not being h...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c1059-60 (Link to this contribution)
Before the break, I expressed my views on the current law on provocation and the Government’s propos...
Lord Henley | 713 c1060-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hunt and I seem to be splitting the murder issues between us. My nobl...
Lord Carlile of Berriew | 713 c1076 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful for all the speeches in this important debate. My understanding was exactly ...
Lord Bach | 713 c1075 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall try to answer the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I thank him and also the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1076-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wish to explain why I am bringing forward the amendment at this point. As some of your L...
Lord McColl of Dulwich | 713 c1079 (Link to this contribution)
Which doctors objected to chloroform under those circumstances? I know that there were a few ministe...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 713 c1068-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am sorry to disagree with the noble Lord, but I have a couple of questions that I want t...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 713 c1069 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am in a dilemma because I would rather speak after the Minister, but I can speak briefly...
Lord Bach | 713 c1069-73 (Link to this contribution)
I shall rise now. It was important that the three Members of the House—I know that there were others...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 713 c1073-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the very clear way in which he has explained these impor...
Lord Henley | 713 c1075 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I can very brief. I intervened earlier and I apologise, but I was hoping the speed up the ...
Baroness Murphy | 713 c1085 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before this debate, I had sought out the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and told him that I w...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 713 c1082-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment is not about assisted suicide, but rather euthanasia. If a person cannot com...
Lord Low of Dalston | 713 c1082 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, but perhaps I might just make these remarks. Hav...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 713 c1080-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is late; I will be very brief. The amendment yet again singles out sick and disabled pe...
Lord Patten | 713 c1081-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have three things to say. I will not indulge in any generalities, my distaste for assist...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1079-80 (Link to this contribution)
If the noble Lord maintains that doctors and the medical profession have always been justified in th...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c1080 (Link to this contribution)
I would like to speak first on this, because although there are fundamental issues involved in this ...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1079 (Link to this contribution)
If the noble Lord expects me to provide chapter and verse, either medically or theologically, I am n...
Lord McColl of Dulwich | 713 c1079 (Link to this contribution)
Why not? The noble Lord made an assertion.
Lord Bach | 713 c1087-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. Perhaps I may make one or two final c...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1088-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, perhaps particularl...
Lord Tebbit | 713 c1085-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this amendment is about life and death, and there are not many matters of greater import. ...
Bishop of Ripon and Leeds | 713 c1086-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, hope that we shall not proceed with the amendment, despite the power of the speech...
Lord Goodhart | 713 c1087 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it is plain that there is little or no support in the House this evening for the amendment...
Baroness O'Cathain | 713 c1083-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, looking at the amendment, I am struck by its dismal wording. It states, ""if assistance is...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 713 c1013-4 (Link to this contribution)
The mandatory life sentence for murder is an anachronism and it is not benign either. I support what...
Lord Bach | 713 c995 (Link to this contribution)
42: Schedule 5, page 134, line 27, leave out first "may" and insert "must"
Lord Henley | 713 c999 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I echo what the noble and learned Baroness had to say. Again, what the Government propose ...
Baroness Trumpington | 713 c987 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, some people may believe in ghosts and others may not. You might be forgiven for thinking t...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c1076 (Link to this contribution)
66: After Clause 55, insert the following new Clause—
"Exceptions to offence of assisting suicide
No...
Lord Bach | 713 c1089-94 (Link to this contribution)
66A: Before Clause 64, insert the following new Clause—
"Genocide, crimes against humanity and war c...
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn | 713 c986-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Redesdale and Lord Howarth of Newp...
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