UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 18 June 2009, in the House of Lords.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

711 c287-342GC

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 32-EN also published.
Wednesday, 18 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Social Security Administration Act 1992
Thursday, 13 February 1992
Public acts

Proceeding contributions

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c336GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, the Secretary of State and the department need to know what is going on, but it is not for ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c332GC (Link to this contribution) My immediate response to that is that the noble Lord’s second proposition is probably the one that r...

Show all contributions (154)

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c339-40GC (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 2 should stand part of the Bill. Before we leave Clause 2, it is worth ta...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c292GC (Link to this contribution) I detect a soapy mirror for reflection. I do not think that that was a very good example and it does...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c319GC (Link to this contribution) Despite the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has decided to not to move the amendment, an...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c323GC (Link to this contribution) Does that not make the participatory nature of decision-making rather complex? Is the decision made ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c326GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that elucidation, which is really what I wanted to hear. I thought that it was not...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c324GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness will forgive me, her amendment states, ""may not require part-time working"." ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c299GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I think that, if a direction is made, the individual complies and comes to the next work-focuse...

Countess of Mar | 711 c314GC (Link to this contribution) She was examined by a doctor.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c336GC (Link to this contribution) I reiterate that we would not want to end up with a situation where we contract with a prime contrac...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c335-6GC (Link to this contribution) The last thing that I would ever want to do would be to create more ambiguity than is already contai...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c335GC (Link to this contribution) I think that it would generally be the case that the Minister is responsible for the activities of t...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c330GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful that there will be specific help, but my question was: what if they do not delive...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 711 c329GC (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches share the suspicions, as the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, put it so well, and t...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c328-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am very suspicious of the contracting-out model with this sort of work. I understand that the fina...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c339GC (Link to this contribution) It was before my time.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c340-1GC (Link to this contribution) The surest and most sustainable way to address child poverty is to support more parents into work, w...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c341GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 71 71: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— "Work-related activity: additiona...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c338GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 63 63: Clause 2, page 8, line 30, leave out "criminal" and insert "court"

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c339GC (Link to this contribution) I have made this point before: the fact that the department has always done this does not necessaril...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c298GC (Link to this contribution) I said that there would be a succession of directions, but that at any one time there would be only ...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c298GC (Link to this contribution) Very often women with children who do not know English face several barriers at the same time. I am ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c297GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that Hansard reporters have better hearing than me. I thought I heard the Minister talking ab...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c297GC (Link to this contribution) There may be several barriers to work. This direction-making power is to say that the adviser has th...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c287GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: Work-related activity: income support claimants and partners of claimants Amendment 44 4...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c287-8GC (Link to this contribution) Dealing with the noble Lord’s last point, about the references, I presume he means references to "un...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c288GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 45 45: Clause 2, page 6, line 13, after "an" insert ""individual"

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c292GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 46 46: Clause 2, page 6, line 21, at end insert "at the lower rate"

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c289-90GC (Link to this contribution) One follows the other, potentially, if the conditionality is not met. The infamous case studies were...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c289GC (Link to this contribution) Is it not like love and marriage—they go together?

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c291GC (Link to this contribution) If you are going to tailor the plan to an individual’s circumstances, which the Minister says that y...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c290GC (Link to this contribution) There could be an action plan for individual A, but it could cover only general issues and be used f...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I think we are straining the contract terms and its construction, which is currently beyond my brief...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I do not know if the Minister is about to leave the subject of Atos Healthcare and the computer-aide...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c316GC (Link to this contribution) Surely they should not have got to that point; it should have been recognised far earlier.

Countess of Mar | 711 c317GC (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister recall a bit of a scandal in the Midlands three or four years ago, when a doctor s...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c314GC (Link to this contribution) Sure. But I mean the DWP medical team uses a computer-aided assessment to make a final assessment of...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c319GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 57 57: Clause 2, page 7, line 9, at end insert— "( ) may not be in regard to the use of s...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c318GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I really must repeat my question for the third time. What is the situation on appeal...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c322GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to repeat what I always say, but it worries me that this distinction is not made. Women l...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c323-4GC (Link to this contribution) If a lone parent is in the progression-to-work group, with the youngest child aged three or four, th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c324GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness. I think that is the same letter that the noble Lord...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c321-2GC (Link to this contribution) I was startled to see Amendment 58. The four activities that it seeks to rule out—independent job se...

Countess of Mar | 711 c325GC (Link to this contribution) Could we perhaps say, "working in the voluntary sector"?

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c325GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord seemed to be in favour of part-time working for the progression-to-work group. Part-t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c325GC (Link to this contribution) As I indicated when I responded initially, we do not want to be too prescriptive about what work-rel...

Lord Rix | 711 c299GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 54 54: Clause 2, page 7, line 5, at end insert— "( ) must be reasonable, having regard to...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c298GC (Link to this contribution) I think that we are getting somewhere. There will not be multiple directions, and I am delighted to ...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c303GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this amendment. Although it is not within my particular area of expertise, I have li...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c309GC (Link to this contribution) I think we would all welcome an easy-read version of the Bill ourselves.

Lord Rix | 711 c309GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is true. I have said enough. The Minister has said a great deal and I do not want to add t...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c312GC (Link to this contribution) As a disability contact person in the department of politics at the University of York, I have found...

Countess of Mar | 711 c309GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 55 55: Clause 2, page 7, line 5, at end insert— "( ) must be reasonable, having regard to...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c337GC (Link to this contribution) There seems to be an appetite for a letter. I would just say that we are not necessarily or particul...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c337GC (Link to this contribution) Send a letter.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c337GC (Link to this contribution) It is one thing to have the availability; it is a totally different thing to have to need to use it ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c337GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that we are very far apart on this. We are seeking to achieve the right position: when...

Countess of Mar | 711 c335GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but is he saying that if a Minister is brought to the Dispatch...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c334-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am not being shy or coy. We have made it clear that we will have pathfinders, undertaken by extern...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 711 c332GC (Link to this contribution) On that point, will the Minister confirm that these contracts will be available for public inspectio...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c332GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the answer is yes. There would be complaints procedures in the contract that would have...

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay | 711 c332GC (Link to this contribution) Trying to scrutinise contracting-out arrangements of all sorts has been a great problem in many ways...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c332GC (Link to this contribution) If a claimant wanted to complain about a contractor, would they go to Jobcentre Plus to do that?

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c328GC (Link to this contribution) I have some difficulty with these amendments, except for the clause stand part. My noble friend will...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) I would not wish to retable them on Report.

Baroness Crawley | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) Is it possible under the rules for the noble Baroness simply to retable the amendments so that we ca...

Lord Colwyn | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Monday at 3.30 pm.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c339GC (Link to this contribution) It was before mine too, I can assure the noble Lord. I do not apologise for raising this matter. I a...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c338GC (Link to this contribution) This is a simple probing amendment. On the previous amendment my argument rested in part on new subs...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c338-9GC (Link to this contribution) New Section 2G would allow contracted organisations, where appropriate, to deliver work-related cond...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c295-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as part of the progression-to-work pathfinders, parents with younger children and those cl...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c297GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the Minister. The individual action plans, as I think we both agree, could c...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c297GC (Link to this contribution) That is a good example. I do not see why that could not be the case. The might be other issues aroun...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c298GC (Link to this contribution) I think that that is helpful. I was going on to say that I also picked up that the Minister said tha...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c297GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the learning of English would be a key barrier. Would that be a good example?

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c287GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether it is only me who thinks that it is perhaps appropriate that on the fourth day of C...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c288GC (Link to this contribution) Certainly I will withdraw my amendment. I was interested to hear the Minister say that not everythin...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c288GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord leaves me with that thought I will see whether we can produce some data.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c293GC (Link to this contribution) These provisions generally deal with recipients of income support or with partners of certain recipi...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c292-3GC (Link to this contribution) Given that social security laws are viewed with great suspicion outside the two Houses of Parliament...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c291-2GC (Link to this contribution) True, we do not a difference in view, but what we have is a piece of legislation that I do not belie...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c288-9GC (Link to this contribution) This is rather different. I may have got myself into a muddle thinking about the two rates of employ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c291GC (Link to this contribution) If we are to discuss the matter at a subsequent stage that is probably the best time to do so, and I...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I sincerely hope that that is never a contract term, but I would need to get formal advice that it i...

Countess of Mar | 711 c317GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to see the paying of bonuses expressly banned in the contract.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c315-6GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Countess for these amendments. She raises again an important issue that she has ca...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c316-7GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed, the purpose of the process is to identify and bag up these issues right at the start of the ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c318GC (Link to this contribution) I had not quite finished. The department is currently carrying out a review of the work-capability a...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c320GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 58 58: Clause 2, page 7, line 9, at end insert— "( ) may not require independent job sear...

Countess of Mar | 711 c319GC (Link to this contribution) I have just heard the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, say that 60 per cent are successful. I am gratef...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c318GC (Link to this contribution) I do not have those data to hand. They are not in the Box. I will have a look and write to the noble...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c324GC (Link to this contribution) I have just received a letter from a mother who is on income support and has an 11 month-old son. Sh...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c322GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment to the extent that I, too, am bewildered about conflating these two complete...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c325GC (Link to this contribution) Anything but "undertaking voluntary work". Anyway, I shall read what the Minister has said.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c325GC (Link to this contribution) That is something that we can all agree on. If it is all by agreement, I have no problem with any of...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c326GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 60 60: Clause 2, page 7, line 15, after first "of," insert "or contractors to,"

Lord Rix | 711 c299-301GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 89 and 92. I am joined in their support by the noble Baroness, Lady...

Baroness Murphy | 711 c302-3GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment has been so ably moved that I do not need to add much more than my tuppenceworth. I su...

Countess of Mar | 711 c303GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, mentioned horticulture. Perhaps I may also mention the fact that a ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c307-8GC (Link to this contribution) I readily recognise the challenge involved in that. If we are dealing with ESA customers, there is a...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c306GC (Link to this contribution) What provisions are there for recognising certain disabilities, particularly mental disability, amon...

Lord Rix | 711 c308-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the amendment, and to my noble friend...

Countess of Mar | 711 c309-11GC (Link to this contribution) I shall also speak to Amendments 90 and 93. In doing so, I declare a non-pecuniary interest as chair...

Countess of Mar | 711 c314GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister may recall that this subject has come up on numerous occasions at Question Time, and I ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c313-4GC (Link to this contribution) Like other queries that have been thrown at my noble friend over the past few Committee days, this i...

Baroness Murphy | 711 c313GC (Link to this contribution) I have an extra question for the Minister. I was struck, as always, by the noble Countess, Lady Mar,...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c314GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister responds to this short debate, perhaps I might be allowed a supplementary. I men...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c336-7GC (Link to this contribution) That is the point that I was making. I was saying that of course the Secretary of State needs knowle...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c336GC (Link to this contribution) It may not be a question of direction, but I would have thought that, in any contract negotiations, ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c334GC (Link to this contribution) Have we wasted our time in the past three and three-quarter days? Surely the whole point of this is ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c333-4GC (Link to this contribution) There is a difference between "expects" in terms of "is required to" and "may". We are simply provid...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c333GC (Link to this contribution) Parliament does expect, and the Government expect, that these functions will be contracted out, so I...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c332-3GC (Link to this contribution) I see the thrust of the noble Lord’s point. I should like to reflect on that to see what would routi...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c330-2GC (Link to this contribution) I was coming to that. I will respond in detail to the letter that the noble Baroness has sent to me....

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c329-30GC (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments allows us to debate the Government’s approach to contracting with the publi...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c326-8GC (Link to this contribution) This is alarming group of amendments: Amendments 60, 61, 64, 65, 151 to 153, 155 and 155A; it is als...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c329GC (Link to this contribution) The existing private companies do not deliver. I sent a letter from a teacher to the Minister who wa...

Countess of Mar | 711 c328GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment—particularly what the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, said. This is a del...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) No, no.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) We could simply have them as the first item on the next day’s business. They change the topic to fin...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c342GC (Link to this contribution) There is some difficulty. I do not know what time the Committee is proposing to finish. If it is pro...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c338GC (Link to this contribution) That has very little to do with what I was saying, which was about a relationship between the two se...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c297GC (Link to this contribution) That does not mean that you cannot have a succession of directions picking up different components o...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c288GC (Link to this contribution) In that case I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 44 withdrawn.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c291GC (Link to this contribution) I am certainly happy to reflect on that. I genuinely think that it is unnecessary, however. I do not...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c292GC (Link to this contribution) We have probably almost beaten this one to death. However, I draw the noble Lord’s attention to new ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c294GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 52 52: Clause 2, page 6, line 45, leave out "only"

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c294GC (Link to this contribution) I would not even have considered putting down this amendment, but for the fact that new Section 2E (...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c294-5GC (Link to this contribution) That dispenses with new Section 2E of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 and we move on to ...

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood | 711 c290GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely confused. What on earth is the difference between a personalised action plan and an i...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c289GC (Link to this contribution) I hope to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that it i...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c289GC (Link to this contribution) This may well be the shortest speech that I shall make in Committee, but this is an extremely good a...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c291GC (Link to this contribution) The phrase "holes and digging" sprang into my mind as the Minister went through his brief. The Minis...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c320GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for detaining the Committee even for these five minutes, but I thought I should draw thi...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c319-20GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that, but had I not been handed the letter, in only the past 10 minutes or so, I would ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c320GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said, we have ranged over this issue extensively. If the noble ...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c319GC (Link to this contribution) I did not move the amendment because I felt that we had rehearsed the arguments in relation to it fu...

Countess of Mar | 711 c322GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said something to the effect that claimants should not require pe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c323GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can deal with the last point first. The suggestion that mothers cannot effectively be full...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c320-1GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 58 is intended to probe the Government’s intentions as to what claimants are expected to d...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c325GC (Link to this contribution) To be absolutely clear, there can be no requirement imposed upon an individual in the progression-to...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c324GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support I have had from the noble Baronesses, Lady Afshar and Lady Meacher. Th...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c299GC (Link to this contribution) I think that you could use the legal term, "spent", which I think is what the Minister means. That h...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c298GC (Link to this contribution) I note the point that the noble Baroness has pressed on a number of occasions. We may in part be tal...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c301-2GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has given me permission to come in at this point to allow him to ca...

Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c302GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee for being absent at the very start of the debate, but I am also involve...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c305-6GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rix, for moving his amendment. It brings us to an important topic that ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c303-5GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Rix, will be glad to hear that this is an occasion when I will not be a bit of ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c306GC (Link to this contribution) The Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health was involved in the development of the Jobcentre Plus adviser...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c306GC (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister asked Mencap specifically for help in training advisers?

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c311-2GC (Link to this contribution) We are assured at every turn that those with fluctuating health conditions, such as ME, MS, rheumato...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c312-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am going to have to put my slightly provocative hat on. It occurs to me that the worse the level o...

Subjects

Disability

Contracts

Childcare

Benefits rules

Age

Advisory services

Childminding

Chronic fatigue syndrome

Diagnosis

Employment

Jobcentres

Interviews

Jobcentre Plus

General practitioners

Learning disability

Medical examinations

Private sector

Pensioners

Parents

Poverty

Staff

Part-time employment

Lone parents

Social security

Social security benefits

Standards

Voluntary organisations

Training

Unemployed people

Voluntary work

Employment and support allowance

Legislation

Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09

Link

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