Welfare Reform Bill

I readily recognise the challenge involved in that. If we are dealing with ESA customers, there is a process of work-focused interviews and a work-focused health-related assessment, currently undertaken by Atos Healthcare on our behalf, whose professionals get training. However, it is important that people from the minority-ethnic communities who have language or cultural difficulties in expressing themselves on these issues are accompanied by people who can support them through these processes. We need to be ever-vigilant to make sure that the training recognises that some people who come in as customers may not be forthcoming because of cultural issues around their health condition. It is important that people have the skill to probe that. I am conscious that I can assert from the Dispatch Box that we have lots of provisions and training and that we are going to engage with stakeholders to improve that but, as we all know, what actually matters is what happens in practice and not only getting the training in place but having proper monitoring of our staff and contract monitoring of our providers. The noble Lord, Lord Rix, asked about the social care Green Paper. I regret that I am not in a position to say more than my colleague Phil Hope. The Department for Work and Pensions has been closely involved in its preparation, and I hope that it will see the light of day before we get to Report so that we can revisit it then. The noble Lord also asked about specialist subcontractors. We encourage specialist subcontractors within a framework of strategic partnerships with prime contractors and later in our deliberations we will be discussing how that works. We are not seeking to squeeze out smaller providers, very much the contrary. The draft ESA regulations include a provision for failure to understand the requirements to be a good cause. However, I am happy to revisit the wording. I believe the provision is there; it is certainly intended to be there. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, urged us to be joined up on this as a Government. As ever, he raises an important point. The impact assessment for the Bill has encompassed equality and child poverty as part of its approach, but there is always more that government can do to be joined up. We are dealing with work-related activity. There is no question of mandating anybody to a specific job, that is not the group that we are dealing with. In moving his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Rix, touched on the point that employers have a key role to play. We can do whatever we can to support people, but we need to make sure that we engage with employers so they have the benefit of people who have real talent and expertise that can brought to bear, which will help not only those individuals but the businesses the employers run. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked about the numbers. We estimate that around 50,000 people claiming incapacity benefit or employment support allowance have a learning disability. This figure could be higher given that the estimate does not include those people whose learning disability is not listed as their main health condition. In addition, there are likely to be claimants who would still broadly be classed as having a learning disability, but who do not fall into the above category. That is what we have on the scale of the issue. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, made an interesting point about engagement with animals, farms and so on. That would be an entirely reasonable work-related activity that could appear in somebody’s action plan. I do not know if it ever has, but it is just the sort of thing that work-related activity should be about: helping people to engage and building their confidence. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, made the analogy that action plans are about care plans. They should be jointly owned, trying to ensure that people can progress. As all other noble Lords have said, training is absolutely key. My noble friend Lady Turner supported the amendment in similar terms. Where we might part is on the need for it to be in the Bill. However, we are, I hope, agreed upon the need to ensure that these issues are addressed and inculcated into the processes that we set in train, and that we are resourced to ensure that we can deliver on them. That is probably not the full loaf that the noble Lord, Lord Rix, was seeking with his amendment, but he will acknowledge what we are trying to achieve. As ever, I am happy, together with colleagues, to continue to work with him on these matters.