Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 5 March 2008, in the House of Lords.

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Lords Committee stage sixth day. Amendment 144B agreed to on division (148 votes to 87).

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

699 c1095-148; 699 c1164-92

Session

2007-08

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Brought from the Commons. In two volumes. (Explanatory Note HL Bill 16-EN published).
Wednesday, 9 January 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Lucas | 699 c1095-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 137A: 137A: Clause 128, page 88, line 30, at end insert— ““except that this se...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 699 c1096 (Link to this contribution) Why are bailiffs different from other people—other civilians?

Show all contributions (144)

Lord Lucas | 699 c1096-7 (Link to this contribution) I am arguing that they should be in exactly the same position. The Government propose to give bailif...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1097 (Link to this contribution) I very much support the amendment. It is interesting that the powers of bailiffs have been changed f...

Lord Bach | 699 c1097-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for bringing the attention of the House back to these important ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c1095 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Lord Lucas | 699 c1099 (Link to this contribution) I will give the noble Lord an opportunity to rise to his feet if he can answer two questions that co...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c1101 (Link to this contribution) I have no objection to the addition that the noble Lord suggests; it is correct. However, I do not a...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1099-101 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 138: 138: Clause 128, page 88, line 37, after second ““to”” insert ““all the c...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1104 (Link to this contribution) If I heard aright and we are referring to Amendment No. 140, I confirm that we are considering that ...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c1104-5 (Link to this contribution) I make these points about Amendment No. 140. Although I appreciate everything that noble Lords have ...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to move it. I have said what I wanted to say on the topic and I shall refer to a late...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1102-4 (Link to this contribution) The operation of the law on self-defence is an area of genuine public concern justifying the sensiti...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c1104 (Link to this contribution) Is the Committee now considering the content of Amendment No. 140? I appreciate that the amendment h...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1104 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification. I confirm that the Government intend to stand by the test in s...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c1111 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble and learned Lord look at a learned article emanating from the University of Aberdeen ...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1111 (Link to this contribution) I am conscious that there is academic argument in this area. As matters stand, the Government are re...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c1111-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 143: 143: Clause 129, page 89, line 37, leave out ““and 55”” and insert ““, 55...

Lord Henley | 699 c1113 (Link to this contribution) We have tabled Amendment No. 148A in this group. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, I appreciate ...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1113-4 (Link to this contribution) One of the problems of present society is the immense spread of data retention. For instance, the po...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1110 (Link to this contribution) To be clear, I am not saying that. The law, when one traces it through the various cases, can be div...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c1110-1 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the former Advocate-General for giving way. As he will know better than any of...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1111 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to be drawn into discussing my own personality, but I was formerly the Solicitor-Gener...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1111 (Link to this contribution) One of my fellow countrymen may occasionally have offered some guidance in that area, and no doubt i...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 699 c1109 (Link to this contribution) For once in my life I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord in his submission. The burden o...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1109 (Link to this contribution) A mischief of this provision is that self-defence operates not only in one criminal offence but acro...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c1108-9 (Link to this contribution) I know that every second I occupy keeps the Committee from blasphemy—and I tender my apologies to ce...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c1109-10 (Link to this contribution) I have a clarificatory comment to make. Although I have had the pleasure of being Advocate-General f...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1110 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister saying that the law is not clear now, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c1107-8 (Link to this contribution) I feel privileged to be able to say that I support completely the wise and authoritative words of th...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1105 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lords, Lord Neill and Lord Elystan-Morgan, and the Minister for their replies. I r...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c1106-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to add my voice at this stage of the proceedings and I am sorry to have missed, in partic...

Bishop of Portsmouth | 699 c1132-4 (Link to this contribution) The presence of a number of right reverend Prelates this evening should not fill your Lordships with...

Lord Elton | 699 c1134 (Link to this contribution) The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth is back in bouncing form on the Bishops’ Bench, ...

Lord Avebury | 699 c1134 (Link to this contribution) Like several other noble Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Elton, referred to the Act. It is not an Act: i...

Baroness O'Cathain | 699 c1129-31 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I oppose government Amendment No. 144B, together with Amendments Nos. 145 and 148. The Mi...

Lord Davies of Coity | 699 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) The amendment has been tabled rather late in the passage of the Bill. Although I cannot quarrel with...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c1132 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, although in so doing I respect greatly the deep sincerity and total commitm...

Lord Avebury | 699 c1123-6 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to the amendment in my name and to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, for her s...

Lord Avebury | 699 c1126 (Link to this contribution) I think I deserve my day in court, having been at this for some 20 years, if you do not mind. In th...

Baroness Andrews | 699 c1117-22 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 144B: 144B: After Clause 129, insert the following new Clause— ““Blasphemy and...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1122-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to the amendment that I tabled. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, and I both sit on th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c1117 (Link to this contribution) Of course I cannot answer that question because I cannot anticipate the time that noble Lords will s...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c1117 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I must say to the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that the Press C...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c1116-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Earl for that intervention, but the point relates to Section 55(2)(d) of ...

Lord Henley | 699 c1117 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord help me on one matter? He has confessed that the Government have slight problems ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c1115-6 (Link to this contribution) Blasphemy approaches, but this is an important discussion which I am sure that we will come back to ...

Earl of Erroll | 699 c1116 (Link to this contribution) This is about the Data Protection Act, which is about personal data. Therefore, I would have thought...

Earl of Erroll | 699 c1114 (Link to this contribution) I reinforce what the noble Lord, Lord Henley, said about retaining Clause 129. I think that it is ve...

Earl of Northesk | 699 c1114-5 (Link to this contribution) I support the thrust of Amendments Nos. 146 and 148A, although, on balance, I favour the wording of ...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 699 c1146 (Link to this contribution) If the Government felt so strongly that it was an important issue for the two reasons the Minister h...

Baroness Andrews | 699 c1145-6 (Link to this contribution) That did not stop him saying that it would probably continue to be of value to keep the offence. Ver...

Baroness O'Cathain | 699 c1146 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the Minister a simple question. In view of the comments of my noble friend Lord Ki...

Baroness Andrews | 699 c1146 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has been in government and will know that sometimes opportunities are presented more ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c1148 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving the Motion, I suggest that Committee...

Baroness Andrews | 699 c1147 (Link to this contribution) Yes, we have a Whip because we think that it is sufficiently important to take our supporters throug...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1166-7 (Link to this contribution) When we were talking earlier about blasphemy, the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, prayed in aid the wi...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1165-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149: 149: Clause 148, page 106, line 34, leave out ““the public”” and insert “...

Baroness Andrews | 699 c1144 (Link to this contribution) As was predictable, this has been a profound and fascinating debate. I am very grateful to everyone ...

Lord Avebury | 699 c1144 (Link to this contribution) He also said that, in 40 years of experience, he had never come across a case under the ECJA.

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1170-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister, if I understood him correctly, said that the conditions would not be punitive or an ad...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1170 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl raises a good point, but we do not know exactly what the conditions will be. The cond...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1170 (Link to this contribution) How can the Minister say that they are not punitive if they subject people to curfew? I am not argui...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1169-70 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his International Code Flag ““Uniform””, which means ““You are running in...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the chap to whom the noble Lord referred is committing a crime; so charge him with...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1169 (Link to this contribution) I was speaking to the first three amendments; the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has gone rather wider ...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c1169 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for embarrassing the Minister. I was trying to save the Committee time, because I am ess...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c1167-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I and several other noble Lords have notified our intention to oppose the Question that Cl...

Lord Selsdon | 699 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) Occasionally Governments do something that I regard as pointless—I do not mean that it has no point;...

Baroness Park of Monmouth | 699 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to intervene. However, I strongly support what my noble friend Lord Elton said. We ...

Lord Davies of Coity | 699 c1135 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Onslow, talked about the faith of the people, but the perception will be that t...

Lord Elton | 699 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I was not talking about faith: I was talking about the perception of the British people of who they ...

Bishop of Durham | 699 c1136-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope that your Lordships will indulge one more Bishop speaking. These Benches have just been prese...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 699 c1135-6 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to speak at any great length about this, but listening to the right reverend Prelat...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c1135 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord will accept that I referred both to the statute and to common law as it stood. The po...

Lord Elton | 699 c1135 (Link to this contribution) In that case, it cannot clutter anything.

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1135 (Link to this contribution) Surely great faith does not need the protection of blasphemy laws: it is great enough not to need th...

Lord Elton | 699 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I take that point, but you have to consider the alternative. We have had demonstrated to us very for...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1143-4 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords will know that these Benches are not empty at Prayers and that there are people of deep ...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c1142-3 (Link to this contribution) The Opposition are going to have a free vote on this matter. In a way, that puts me in a more uncomf...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c1142 (Link to this contribution) The information is not and has not been properly before us. We have not had preparation time for thi...

Lord Avebury | 699 c1142 (Link to this contribution) The Select Committee did exactly what the noble Lord said. It trundled around and took evidence from...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to intervene on this, but I support what the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and my noble fr...

Lord Armstrong of Ilminster | 699 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to take part in this debate, but I wish to speak briefly in support of the noble ...

Lord Elton | 699 c1141 (Link to this contribution) Will the right reverend Prelate take the opportunity to whisper in his brother of Durham’s ear the q...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I shall refer to my close friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham and say that I thin...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1141 (Link to this contribution) May I, who proposed much the same amendment, support the right reverend Prelate and beg the Governme...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c1140-1 (Link to this contribution) I hope that your Lordships will accept a fourth voice from these Benches, but it will be a voice exp...

Lord Sentamu | 699 c1173 (Link to this contribution) If I am in a pub and somebody behaves in a threatening manner, and people can testify to that fact, ...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1173 (Link to this contribution) We are talking about going into a pub and people saying that a crime has been committed and being pr...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me, but I am trying to understand this. The nearest I can ge...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that the noble Baroness would have understood from my earlier remarks how this measure w...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1173 (Link to this contribution) Damaging a car is a criminal offence. In a civilised society you should not say, ““We think you migh...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I fear that that shows a lack of understanding of what goes on in some parts of the country and in s...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) A number of points have been raised. I still do not believe that the orders are punitive. It is not ...

Baroness Stern | 699 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I hope the Minister does not mind having to remember so many interventions at once. I got the impres...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1172 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely right. That is the risk that I am talking about. It is a current risk and it will...

Baroness Stern | 699 c1185 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments of the noble Earl, my colleague on the Joint Committee on Human Rights, whi...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 154: 154: Clause 151, page 109, line 3, after ““satisfied”” insert ““beyond re...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1183 (Link to this contribution) The amendment addresses not the period of 10 years from the date of conviction, but 10 years from th...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1183 (Link to this contribution) If he has not been convicted of an offence, he has lived a completely innocent life. Is the noble Lo...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1184 (Link to this contribution) I shall adopt the words of Lord Asquith and wait and see. I want to see that amendment well in time....

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c1183-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for his clarification. I understand the point. Of cour...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c1181-2 (Link to this contribution) No, we would have to bring forward new legislation, as I understand it, to capture the under-18 age ...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c1182-3 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for being slightly slow in getting to my feet; I was expecting rather more interest in t...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1182 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 153A: 153A: Clause 149, page 107, line 13, at beginning insert ““Subject to su...

Baroness Stern | 699 c1181 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister confirm that he said that it was not the Government’s intention to make such orders...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c1181 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord raises the issue of the effect of the orders on those under the age of 18. I confirm ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1181 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 153: 153: Clause 149, page 107, line 12, after ““person”” insert ““aged 18 yea...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1181 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 150 to 152...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1180 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl, Lord Onslow, raises a good point. It might show that. It might show that the order a...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1180 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that the period has been reduced from 10 to five years. It is totally fair to thank the...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1179-80 (Link to this contribution) As I have already explained in the context of the debate on the previous amendment, these orders are...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1178-9 (Link to this contribution) Precisely. It may be that an order is made on ordinary evidence called before the magistrates’ court...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1174-6 (Link to this contribution) We accept that in relation to domestic violence and that is the basis on which we are approaching th...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1174 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said that, because someone has committed a violent offence before, we are going to im...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1177 (Link to this contribution) It is quite difficult to give exact examples, but let us say that the police witness someone drinkin...

Baroness Stern | 699 c1176 (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful for some help. As I understand it, people are going to be risk-assessed and then...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1177 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises a very good point. These orders, which will go through a list of assessmen...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c1177 (Link to this contribution) I really do not want to add to the noble Lord’s woes and the hour is late, but—and there is always a...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1178 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord. Is it not also true that there is no possibility of testing ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1177-8 (Link to this contribution) It is helpful to look at the situation that is envisaged. The person against whom the order has been...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1174 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that at all. That is not what the measure is aimed at. It is aimed at people who hav...

Baroness Stern | 699 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt but it is very important that we try to get to the bottom of this. The Minis...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1191-2 (Link to this contribution) Let us have a crack at looking at the McCann case. In the Joint Committee, we considered that violen...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c1192 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord Judd | 699 c1185 (Link to this contribution) I gladly support the amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and the noble Baroness, Lady...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1188 (Link to this contribution) Do I understand the Minister to say that the evidence given by a witness could not be challenged by ...

Lord Sentamu | 699 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) I can understand anti-social behaviour orders being seen as some kind of civil law application, but ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) I, too, should like to ask more about this amendment. Unless the Minister can tell us that these ord...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1186-8 (Link to this contribution) Just to reassure the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, let me say that it takes a great deal to disturb my sl...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1190 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly what the Minister said. In the debate he said that people in the pub will complain t...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I was taken slightly out of context there. The evidence will not just be gossip. I have said on a nu...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister can help me in my state of characteristic confusion. He said a few min...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) To answer the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, first, the evidence that I was talking about that...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that magistrates frequently address the police in the terms the Minister has referred to, ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1171 (Link to this contribution) The perennial problem with this type of order is that you create a personal criminal code for an ind...

Lord Sentamu | 699 c1127-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in the light of what the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, has said, perhaps I may attempt to give ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1179 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149A: 149A: Clause 148, page 106, line 36, after ““years”” insert ““, and not ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c1108 (Link to this contribution) Despite the illuminating instruction that we had fairly late on Monday evening, it seems a pity that...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c1107 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make a brief point, which backs entirely what the noble and learned Lord has just s...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c1172 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, I must say that the letter I have in my hand, which I received at 12.45, ...

Lord West of Spithead | 699 c1171 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying it just to get round that provision; I am saying that they are not necessarily punit...

Subjects

Data protection

Criminal proceedings

Administration of justice

Crimes of violence

Defamation

Blasphemy

Debt collection

Personal records

Privacy

Young offenders

Christianity

Self-defence

Legislation

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk