Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

moved Amendment No. 137A: 137A: Clause 128, page 88, line 30, at end insert— ““except that this section does not apply in cases to which section (Protection of persons exercising lawful powers) applies.”” The noble Lord said: Those of us who were lucky enough to be here late on Monday night were treated to an hour or so of education on the law of self-defence, courtesy of the noble Lords, Lord Neill of Bladen and Lord Elystan-Morgan. I learnt a great deal from that. It is possible that the Minister learnt something from it too, although he did not give that away. This amendment, and Amendment No. 142A with which it is grouped, are a small coda to that discussion concerning the law of self-defence as it applies to bailiffs. As far as I know, for a very long time both the bailiff and the debtor have been entitled to the protection of the law of self-defence. The encounter between a bailiff and a debtor is always fraught and can naturally lead to the use of violence in some circumstances. As explained to us on Monday night, the law of self-defence in this country is a very good combination of limitations on what violence can legitimately be used and a proper understanding of the circumstances; that is, where violence erupts in these circumstances one cannot afterwards, in the cold light of day, take too fine a view of the degree of violence that was used and whether it was exactly proportionate to the occasion. That seems an extremely civilised and sensible way of going on and has always been the arrangement regarding an encounter between a bailiff and a debtor. However, in the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill the Government proposed that this should be altered and that the bailiff should be given a right to employ violence against the debtor. That right is to be enshrined in regulations that we have not yet seen but which I am told are in the course of preparation. I want to use the opportunity of the Bill and the light thrown again on self-defence to ask the Government to think again. Should not the existing situation continue to prevail? We allow agents of the state to use violence on occasion. The police are the obvious example, but they are a well-trained body of men and women and the complaints and supervision procedures work well. Although things go wrong from time to time, by and large it is an extremely satisfactory process and has been for a long time. But the police deal with criminal cases and bailiffs deal with debt. Bailiffs are not well regulated. The system of regulation is extremely loose in practice. Although there are many effective, efficient and well-behaved bailiffs, we all know that a good number do not follow the rules and that the current arrangements do not curb them. That is why the Government intend to put in place better controls, but they are not in place at the moment. By and large, we are dealing with small amounts of money. This auto-justice that we have got used to, where small fines are handed out in very large quantities and quickly find their way into the bailiff system, is creating a large pressure of work in that area. Individual London authorities are putting tens of thousands of their residents into the hands of bailiffs every year. The figure in Camden is 40,000 per year and rising and other local authorities are not far behind. These are very large numbers of people and very small amounts of money; the people are often vulnerable and it is a civil debt. Under those circumstances are we really right to allow bailiffs, as they are, to employ violence against the debtor as a means of getting repayment of the debt? That is what the Government propose. It was in the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill when it first came before us this was in the Bill and it will now be in regulations.