Parliamentary search - Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

699 c873-944

Session

2007-08

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Brought from the Commons. In two volumes. (Explanatory Note HL Bill 16-EN published).
Wednesday, 9 January 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2008-0736
Friday, 14 March 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2008-0738
Friday, 14 March 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2008-0846
Wednesday, 26 March 2008
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c880-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for the way in which he has introduced the debate. The changes ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c878-80 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 120: 120: Clause 111, page 77, line 37, leave out ““2”” and insert ““6”” The ...

Show all contributions (133)

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c878 (Link to this contribution) I say to the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, that if I got what I wanted I would not mind if it was Bill nu...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 699 c883 (Link to this contribution) How much money are they saving? Is it not cheese-paring?

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c883 (Link to this contribution) I applaud the principle that underlies these three amendments. I suspect that it finds an echo in th...

Lord Baker of Dorking | 699 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) I have considerable sympathy with the amendments of the noble Lord. It fell to me, when I was Home S...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c882 (Link to this contribution) On the first of the three amendments in this group, which I support, it crossed my mind that if the ...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c878 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Baroness takes the plunge of withdrawing the amendment, I should say th...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c886 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 122A: 122A: After Clause 112, insert the following new Clause— ““Withdrawal of...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c884-5 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the support that my amendments have received from around the House, and espec...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c886 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I beg to move.

Lord Bach | 699 c886 (Link to this contribution) I believe that those amendments have been degrouped.

Lord Clinton-Davis | 699 c887 (Link to this contribution) I am rather troubled by the phrase ““vulnerable person””. Is that defined in any other statute?

Lord Bach | 699 c887 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for moving the amendment in the name of th...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 699 c889 (Link to this contribution) The exception referred to in the amendment, ““but not limited to””, is, by and large, less persuasiv...

Lord Bach | 699 c887-9 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, it is not defined in statute. It is defined in guidance of various kinds. We, to...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 699 c884 (Link to this contribution) I cannot improve on the arguments that have just been adduced, or those of the noble Lord, Lord Elys...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c884 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendments, especially the second one. To put any formal limit on the time wh...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c883-4 (Link to this contribution) That may very well be so, but the noble Lord would accept that it does not really matter whether it ...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c921 (Link to this contribution) My understanding, having done some reading on this, is that boys are as much at risk as girls, but t...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c925 (Link to this contribution) To ensure that the record is accurate, the noble Lord is right to say that there was no contact what...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c922 (Link to this contribution) I listened with care to the response of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, to the point at the heart of my...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c921-2 (Link to this contribution) I entirely share the intention of the mover of the amendment, but the question is whether and why on...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c922-3 (Link to this contribution) In a sense, this is a prelude to our next debate. I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Tho...

Earl Ferrers | 699 c922 (Link to this contribution) A number of noble Lords have said that they quite understand what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, is ge...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c923 (Link to this contribution) Yes, because it rests in terms of whether what is said can be judged to be threatening and with an i...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c923 (Link to this contribution) Do I understand the Minister clearly to be saying that if the association were made by a person betw...

Lord Waddington | 699 c923-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 137: 137: Schedule 26, page 269, line 19, at end insert— ““13A After section 2...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c923 (Link to this contribution) On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Waddington | 699 c925-6 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad that the right reverend Prelate took the opportunity to make that absolutely plain, b...

Lord Clarke of Hampstead | 699 c926-8 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for jumping up but sitting around here all day waiting for this moment has put me a litt...

Earl Ferrers | 699 c930-1 (Link to this contribution) I am fascinated to hear the argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and admire the way in which...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 699 c930 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Government will not feel disposed to accept the amendment. I support the Bill as it ...

Bishop of Winchester | 699 c928-30 (Link to this contribution) Speaking as one whose name is on the amendment—I am glad it is there, and grateful for the speeches ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c928 (Link to this contribution) I have an adjacent amendment to this one. Of course, we support the principle of free speech and we ...

Baroness O'Cathain | 699 c932-3 (Link to this contribution) On this issue, I agree with Peter Tatchell. Over the years, I have not always agreed with him, but o...

Lord Dear | 699 c931-2 (Link to this contribution) I find myself following the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and agreeing with every word he said. I shall ...

Earl Ferrers | 699 c931 (Link to this contribution) I need only ask: what about the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester? As far as I know, he w...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c931 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Earl accept that the priest concerned is not likely to be using threatening words an...

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c917 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that other noble Lords have, like me, received a large number of documents, comments and l...

Lord Henley | 699 c916-7 (Link to this contribution) Oh, it was cross-departmental work. It seems a very extraordinary way of dealing with things. Howeve...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c917 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath announced last week, we have somewhat reluctantly agreed...

Lord Judd | 699 c916 (Link to this contribution) As someone who very strongly wished to support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Mille...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 699 c916 (Link to this contribution) It would be very churlish of me not to express my deep thanks to the Government for doing exactly wh...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c916 (Link to this contribution) It was cross-departmental.

Lord Henley | 699 c916 (Link to this contribution) As we understand it, the Government are removing Clauses 123 to 125, which deal not with prostitutio...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c915 (Link to this contribution) Of course, we shall try to assist in the course of discussions. These issues can be properly discuss...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c915 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134A: 134A: Clause 123, page 85, line 31, after ““““person”” insert ““aged 18 ...

Lord Henley | 699 c915 (Link to this contribution) Bearing that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Claus...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c921 (Link to this contribution) On the contrary, I am not suggesting that there is any association at all. However, the charge that ...

Lord Monson | 699 c921 (Link to this contribution) I, too, sympathise with the purpose of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. However, is it ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c920-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right to say there may be circumstances where an association between homosexuality...

Lord Waddington | 699 c920 (Link to this contribution) While it is very easy to understand why the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, was moved to put do...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c919-20 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 136B: 136B: Schedule 26, page 268, line 38, at end insert— ““( ) After subsect...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c919 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that clarification. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amend...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c919 (Link to this contribution) In my haste to bring this discussion to a conclusion, I omitted to say a word or two about brothels....

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c918-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for those statements. In withdrawing my amendment, I say again that when the Go...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c918 (Link to this contribution) I do not know about that, but they were a jolly entertaining source and a damn good read. Anyway, Al...

Lord Henley | 699 c918 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of respect for the Minister and I, too, found Alan Clark's diaries extraordinari...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c909 (Link to this contribution) It may very well be right that the Government should tackle this problem, but this debate indicates ...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c909-10 (Link to this contribution) To use what most people would find offensive as a central criterion is too subjective. We live in a ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c910 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the expression is very vague, but there are three elements to the test that has to be ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c910 (Link to this contribution) The problem that noble Lords have wrestled with, as have I, of whether there is a link between the p...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c910 (Link to this contribution) I have already prayed in aid the rapid assessment. I have also said that since most of this awful st...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c910 (Link to this contribution) It would be useful, certainly for me and perhaps for other noble Lords, when we meet the Minister be...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c910 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to do that. I reassure the noble Baroness that the Government seek to work very closely w...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c910-1 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that the Government are to be praised and applauded for their efforts regarding this...

Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 699 c911 (Link to this contribution) And their wives.

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c911 (Link to this contribution) Their wives and servants. I am not deriding the Government at all; they have a difficult situation h...

Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws | 699 c911 (Link to this contribution) Reference has been made to the fact that my own chambers do quite a deal of work in the pornographic...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c911-2 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that. The Government are working, and will continue to work, with indust...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 699 c912 (Link to this contribution) If Amendment No. 125B is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 126 to 130.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c912 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 125B: 125B: Clause 113, page 80, line 14, leave out subsection (6) and insert—...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c912 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 123A to 123B: 123A: Clause 113, page 80, line 1, after ““Where”” insert ““(a...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c912 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 125A: 125A: Clause 113, page 80, line 9, leave out from beginning to ““produce...

Lord Bassam of Brighton | 699 c914-5 (Link to this contribution) I understand the objective behind the proposed new clause in Amendment No. 134ZB, and there is a mor...

Lord Henley | 699 c915 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that sympathetic reply. I also thank him on behalf of my honourable friend,...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c912-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 131A to 131B: 131A: Clause 114, page 80, line 41, leave out ““appears that t...

Lord Henley | 699 c913-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 134ZB: 134ZB: After Clause 118, insert the following new Clause— ““Failure to ...

Lord Bach | 699 c889-90 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my noble friend. It is important to point out that the guidelines, in Chapter 6.31, st...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c890-1 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for his lengthy exposition of the Government’s position. I am sur...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 699 c891 (Link to this contribution) I am in a bit of a muddle about how this operates in practice. Presumably the magistrates have to kn...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c893-6 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 122B: 122B: Clause 113, page 79, line 38, leave out ““appears”” and insert ““i...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c896-7 (Link to this contribution) I have some 11 amendments grouped with this government amendment. I am grateful to the Minister for ...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 699 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Baroness, I, too, have received a large number of letters and e-mails on this clause,...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c891 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I would point out that the premise for th...

Lord Bach | 699 c892 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is correct. We are talking about someone who has never appeared before the court and ...

Bishop of Winchester | 699 c892 (Link to this contribution) There seemed to be a level of unreality in what the Minister said—the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gre...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c892-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for that intervention, because it made the point that I ...

Lord Henley | 699 c900-1 (Link to this contribution) I intervene early and apologise for trying to pre-empt the right reverend Prelate. He made some valu...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 699 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand fully why the Government should be exercised about the matters addressed in this part o...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c898-9 (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to speak to this group of amendments and, in doing so, I should like to make a couple o...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c899-900 (Link to this contribution) I want to offer some general support to the Government for what they are attempting to do with these...

Lord Henley | 699 c908 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord mentioned earlier ““what most people find abhorrent””. Are the Government aiming for ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c908-9 (Link to this contribution) Undoubtedly the aim is what most people find abhorrent. On the difficult question of material made ...

Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 699 c905-6 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak in this debate. The government amendments may be flawed, but other Membe...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c906-8 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate more like that held at Second Reading rather than on the detail of...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) I join other noble Lords in their concern that this part is still in the Bill. It is quite clear fro...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 699 c903-5 (Link to this contribution) I share the concerns, which have been expressed by many noble Lords and noble Baronesses about the c...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c873 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Mov...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c873-4 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 117: 117: After Clause 108, insert the following new Clause— ““Court’s power o...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c874-5 (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment moved by the noble and learned Baroness. However, in her Second Reading spe...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c875 (Link to this contribution) I warmly support the intentions behind these proposals, although I do not know whether they meet all...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 699 c875 (Link to this contribution) I support the intention of the amendments, but why is there a difference between the two? Which of t...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c875-7 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the noble and learned Baroness will answer the noble Lord in due course. I am sure, t...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c877-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and am grateful to him for listening to what I have been saying. However, I am ...

Baroness Howarth of Breckland | 699 c933-4 (Link to this contribution) I speak as a Christian, but, far from the chill factor, I realise that in another era I would probab...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c933 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. It is clear from what the noble B...

Bishop of Winchester | 699 c937 (Link to this contribution) I respect and appreciate the points that my friend the right reverend Prelate is making. I particula...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c936-7 (Link to this contribution) I pretty much agreed with what the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, said when he introduced this debate,...

Baroness Whitaker | 699 c936 (Link to this contribution) Many speakers have mentioned freedom. Some have also mentioned equality. One of the problems is that...

Lord Monson | 699 c935-6 (Link to this contribution) Roughly 42 years ago, the Wolfenden recommendations came before your Lordships’ House, well before t...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 699 c938 (Link to this contribution) No one is suggesting—I am certainly not—that there is no homophobia, if we can use that term. There ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c938 (Link to this contribution) In response to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, putting this in its context, we are concern...

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 699 c939 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. It worries me that nowher...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c939 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly, because I have been quite riveted by the exchanges on this issue. I have abso...

Lord Lyell of Markyate | 699 c939 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to this debate. If there is a Division, I shall support the amendment of m...

Lord Tebbit | 699 c940 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the Minister has quite answered the point put to him. Those examples are quite clearl...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c940-1 (Link to this contribution) With respect, it is not for the Government to prosecute because those matters are best left to the D...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c939 (Link to this contribution) If it comes to it, as I suspect that it will, the Opposition will have a free vote on this matter. S...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c939-40 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for ever for his pithy wind-up speech. I agree with the nobl...

Lord Monson | 699 c940 (Link to this contribution) The lyrics quoted by the Minister are terrible, of course, but is it not already a criminal offence ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c940 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, suggested, there is a particular concern about how such lyrics or ot...

Lord Waddington | 699 c943 (Link to this contribution) I was not being as optimistic as my noble friend. I am merely saying that I hope that the Minister, ...

Earl Ferrers | 699 c943 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend takes that auspicious step, he said he was sure that the Minister would consi...

Lord Waddington | 699 c943 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have contributed to the debate. Clearly there is a ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c941-3 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to be drawn into a commentary on an individual case. The noble Earl knows that he wou...

Lord Bach | 699 c944 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In doing so, perhaps I may suggest that the Committee st...

Lord Dearing | 699 c938 (Link to this contribution) In this Committee, there has been a reasoned, cool discussion of a very difficult issue. I hope that...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c878 (Link to this contribution) I have received a lot of advice in the past few weeks on government and legislation. As I have said,...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 699 c934-5 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington; indeed, I am a signatory to it. I ...

Bishop of Chester | 699 c938 (Link to this contribution) I would say only that I believe this demonstration of freedom of speech is exactly what your Lordshi...

Earl Ferrers | 699 c941 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says that the Government have got the balance right, but does he think that it is rig...

Subjects

Children

Compensation

Criminal proceedings

Administration of justice

Homosexuality

Fines

Discrimination

Pornography

Prostitution

Miscarriages of justice

Paedophilia

Young offenders

Sexuality

Legislation

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08

Link

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