Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

I am very glad that the right reverend Prelate took the opportunity to make that absolutely plain, but of course it does not affect the point that I am making. The fact is that the police quite wrongly wasted their time, as well as other people’s, carrying out some sort of investigation into the words, which perhaps they had read in a local paper. They took it so seriously that they issued a public statement saying that they had investigated the matter and that they had wasted police time having discussions with the Crown Prosecution Service. That same lack of sense by the police was shown in the case of Mr and Mrs Roberts of Fleetwood, who were subjected to police interrogation after doing no more than complain about their council’s gay rights policy. The police certainly did not show themselves very expert at recognising the difference between fair comment and stirring up hatred when they questioned Lynette Burrows after she had said on the radio that homosexual men might not be the right people to bring up children. I could go on and on but the point is that all this has happened under the present law. When Christians and others have already been subjected to questioning and investigation by the police for expressing their views, it is surely very difficult to argue that there is no risk at all of this new provision, if left unamended, being misused. Having been so ready to conclude that words are likely to cause harassment under the present law, the police, without help of the kind afforded by my amendment, may well be all too ready to conclude that he who criticises fiercely must have intended to stir up hatred. I respectfully suggest to your Lordships that we would be wise to pay regard to the churches’ submission to the Public Bill Committee’s hearing on the Bill. I should like to quote one passage from it: "““There should be the maximum possible clarity about what is forbidden and what is permitted. Christians engaged in teaching or preaching and those seeking to act in accord with Christian convictions in their daily lives need to be assured that the expression of strong opinions on marriage or sexuality will not be illegal””." In plain words, it should be clear in the Bill who will be caught by its provisions and that a Christian expressing strong views will not be caught. A promise that guidance will be provided for the police, the courts and the prosecution cannot possibly be an adequate substitute for clarity in the law itself. I have to say in parenthesis that the Liberal Amendment No. 137ZZA does not begin to address the problem with which we are confronted. The problem is not that the Attorney-General may not recognise his responsibilities; the problem is that unless something is done people will be interrogated and locked up long before the matter can reach the Attorney-General. We need clear words in the Bill so that police officers do not interrogate people like the Roberts and do not arrest people such as the fellow who appeared on ““One Man and His Dog”” and then made facetious remarks at a country fair. We need clear, plain words in the Bill and not guidance after the mischief has been done. I have already said that the religious hatred provision contains a provision to safeguard free speech, to make it plain that criticism—even robust criticism—does not constitute a threat. If a similar provision to the religious hatred provision is not inserted in this clause, there is the obvious danger that a police officer will notice the difference between the two provisions and conclude that, when it comes to considering words used about sexual behaviour, the right to free speech is something that he does not have to consider although, if it were a case of religious hatred, he would have to consider free speech. I cannot see why the Government resisted this amendment in the Commons, cross-party as it is and similar to, but narrower, milder and not as far reaching, as the provisions in the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. It is surely not good enough to say that it is not necessary. If this amendment will do no harm and will give a clear signal to the police that they must pay due regard to the legitimate exercise of free speech and religious liberty, that will surely be a good thing. I beg to move.