Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

I have some 11 amendments grouped with this government amendment. I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the Government’s purpose and for his letter of 29 February which further expanded how the Government seek better to define their intention in this clause. Our difficulty with the clause is that this material is seen on the internet by someone in the privacy of their own home and is produced abroad so it cannot be caught by the Obscene Publications Act, as the Minister said. Therefore, the first person to judge whether the material falls within the scope of this Bill is the person viewing it. That is a very difficult position for the Government to put an individual in. While I find myself in a difficult position defending people who want to watch violent pornography as I find that very distasteful, nevertheless I believe that, in taking a step in this direction, the Government are effectively becoming the ““thought police””. Has somebody a bad thought behind what they are doing? The Minister referred to the context in which the material is viewed. If I watch a violently sexual scene while chopping onions to make chilli con carne, is that context all right? Does that make it a bit less titillating as I am crying due to the onions and so am unable to concentrate on the film? Would that be viewed in a different light from somebody watching this sort of material in the privacy of their own bedroom? What exactly does the Minister mean by context? The Joint Committee on Human Rights put it very clearly. It said: "““This means that individuals seeking to regulate their conduct in accordance with the criminal law cannot be certain that they will not be committing a criminal offence by having certain images in their possession””." The Government have brought forward helpful amendments which meet the arguments about ““appears to”” and result in a much better definition. However, I do not see that any of the amendments they have brought forward so far deals with the point made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I have a series of questions for the Minister. He referred to the need for this measure given increased internet usage, but how much study have the Government undertaken of the problem of such viewed violence leading to crime to justify their concluding that this is the right legislative step to take? Is the problem due to internet viewing or is the increased amount of sex and violence in late night television films more of an issue? The Minister referred to the rapid evidence assessment. My understanding is that that assessment was made overseas. I would like to know how much of the UK context is relevant to what we have before us today. Then there is question of where this law allows for a multiplicity of statuses for the same material. For instance, a particular act may be deemed illegal to own as a depiction, but if it is passed by the British Board of Film Classification and the need for protection of public morals suddenly disappears, the material is deemed legal. If someone then extracts an image or a short film passed by the British Board of Film Classification, and they just extract one episode, for example, of a violent rape, and play it over and over again, does that fall within the Bill? We ought to have evidence on that sort of use of material. Is it as harmful as something that was made on the internet without being passed by any board of film censors? There are a great number of issues with the clause. There is the human rights issue of how private people can expect to be. I am sure like other noble Lords, I have had a vast number of letters on this subject, some from self-confessed users of pornography who are very frank about it. I have to believe them when there is no evidence to the contrary—which there certainly is not—that they view this sort of thing and never have any reason to think that they would in any way start to commit violent acts against other members of the public. We may not like it, but it is something that they do in the privacy of their own home. What entitles us as a legislature to pass something that is an invasion into their thoughts? What really worries me about it is that we are asking these people to judge whether what they are seeing is going to fall within the remit of the Bill, before it ever gets to a jury. If they think that it does not, because they perhaps do not find it particularly exciting, and then for some reason their use is discovered, the police arrive and they are subsequently prosecuted, that will not sound like much of a defence. Is there something else that the Government can do to improve this clause? I suggest that this clause has been fairly rapidly arrived at, and it might be better to have something that is somewhat more substantial and over which more time has been taken. Perhaps a Joint Committee of both Houses could take evidence and look at the issue of violence and connection to crime, looking at substantial evidence from the UK, to see whether we can arrive at something that is somewhat more satisfactory.