Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

I thank the Minister and am grateful to him for listening to what I have been saying. However, I am not alone in saying this. I am very interested in the idea that under-15s might be dealt with slightly differently. That seems to me well worth exploring. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, that I felt the transfer to the family proceedings court was a step too far, and since Section 37 is also a step too far, I took the view that it would be unwise to include it. To apply Section 37 to the youth court would be extremely easy from a legislative point of view but it is difficult for the Government to accept that this should happen. The trouble is that the Government talk about dealing with the offender and then go through the mantra, ““But, of course, we consider welfare””. I should like offending and welfare to be considered as equally important rather than putting offending before welfare. The particular point about which I am concerned is not to criminalise a young child of 10, 14 or 15 whose bad background, unhappy circumstances or whatever has created the atmosphere in which the child offended. That child should not necessarily have to plead guilty, have a finding of guilt and therefore become part of the criminal justice system. At Second Reading I said that I hoped very much that we could put in something, before the child ever got to the youth court, so that he could be diverted from it if a group of people, chaired preferably by a magistrate or judge, thought that he needed help rather than going to the youth court. If that were possible, Section 37 would not be needed. However, it would be a very useful back-up for magistrates, who would not use it all that often but would certainly use it more than Section 9 of the Children and Young Persons Act, which to my knowledge has never been used. That is why I thought that Section 37 might be a more sensible approach. I am sad that the Government do not think that this would be a useful tool; a lot of youth court magistrates think that it would be. As regards the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, I would prefer to see clearly in the legislation ““under 14”” or ““under 15””. But aware as I am that it is often preferable from the point of view of drafting legislation to be in line with the rest of the magistrates’ courts, ““under 18”” might be a preferable way of putting it, as the Minister appreciated. Purely and simply, I was trailing my coat with the hope that I would get the Minister to be attracted to one if not the other. I am comforted by some of what he said; I am sad that my suggestion has not found favour but, in the circumstances, with the hope of discussing a bit further—