Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 27 February 2008, in the House of Lords.

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Lords Committee stage fourth day. Clauses 29 to 41, 44 to 49, 98 to 104 agreed to, with clause 29 agreed to as amended. Clauses 42 and 43 negatived. Schedules 18 to 22 agreed to. Schedule 5 agreed to as amended. Part 1 of 2 records.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

699 c658-718

Session

2007-08

Department

Ministry of Justice

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Brought from the Commons. In two volumes. (Explanatory Note HL Bill 16-EN published).
Wednesday, 9 January 2008
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 699 c670 (Link to this contribution) I think that there will be a lot of sympathy with what the Minister says about the need to have some...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c670-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right that that power is used. Essentially, we are seeking to regularise the posit...

Show all contributions (147)

Earl of Onslow | 699 c669 (Link to this contribution) It is the punishment that is being increased within the sentence. Lay persons, or non-lawyers like m...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c669-70 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am a non-technician in this area, but it seems to me that one cannot ignore the conditions u...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c668 (Link to this contribution) We can debate endlessly on this matter; indeed, I am somewhat flattered that my remarks, innocent as...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c668-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been a very interesting debate, but in debating the balance between the roles of the Execut...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c668 (Link to this contribution) The fact that it was the exercise of the royal prerogative of mercy does not affect the argument, in...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c668 (Link to this contribution) Surely the parallel with the death penalty is false, because what the Home Secretary did not have th...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c671 (Link to this contribution) Of course, that would be the test to be applied.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 699 c666 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and spoken to by the noble Earl, Lo...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c667 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I appreciate that, in an ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c667 (Link to this contribution) Would not the noble Lord think it appropriate that the civil servant who took the decision to seek r...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c667 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that there would be anything contrary to principle for that to happen, but it would b...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very happy to agree on behalf of the Government that we should not go beyond Part 6, ...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 93: 93: Clause 29, page 20, line 14, at end insert ““, subject to the agreemen...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) It strikes me as bad principle that the Executive should be too involved in sentencing, especially e...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c668 (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl is entirely correct in terms of pure theory and logic, but I doubt very much whether ...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c667 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene again, but surely what the noble Lord has argued for in his package of sente...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c668 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord consider that this is confusion? He referred to the death penalty and the power...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 699 c662 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the Government are concerned to get the Bill through by 8 May, other clauses could be r...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c662 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their generous remarks on my announcement. As on Lords reform, the...

Lord Neill of Bladen | 699 c663 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to indicate an answer to the question that has been raise...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c663 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be very foolish of me to attempt to dictate to the House where we should get to t...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 699 c662 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has asked the House to agree, virtually without any discussion, to his shoppi...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, of course. The noble Lord has never been backward in making his views known. I did not say...

Lord Henley | 699 c663 (Link to this contribution) Sorry, my Lords, it is Parts 4 and 5 that do not exist. But I am quite happy to do Part 6 tonight, p...

Lord Henley | 699 c663 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I can assist the Minister. Following the interventions of the noble and learned Lo...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c663 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with every Bill that one has ever debated there is an aim. You come in and ask at the desk...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c658-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. With...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c660 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, normally when Governments get themselves into a pickle people say to them, ““Yah, boo, suc...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c660 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall make no observations about my noble friend’s intervention. We quite understand the...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c661 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, want to say how glad I am that the Government have dropped, in particular, Clauses...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not as generous in this matter as the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and noble Lords probab...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 699 c661 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister will know, because his noble friend Lord West was at the meeting, that there ...

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 699 c661 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I preface my question with my congratulations to the Government on pressing this matter fo...

Lord Henley | 699 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am slightly confused. The Minister has told us that Clauses 42 and 43 will be dropped, w...

Lord Henley | 699 c683 (Link to this contribution) I was only a very minor cog in that machine. I accept the noble Lord’s remarks and what he said abou...

Lord Bach | 699 c683 (Link to this contribution) What a delight it is to hear the noble Lord, Lord Henley, speaking from the Front Bench in Committee...

Lord Henley | 699 c682-3 (Link to this contribution) I offer my congratulations to the noble Lord on his non-otiose amendment putting the various schedul...

Lord Bach | 699 c682 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 102A: 102A: Schedule 5, Transpose Schedule 5 to after Schedule 7 The noble Lo...

Lord Fowler | 699 c688 (Link to this contribution) I certainly thank the Minister for giving such a full reply; certainly, I would welcome anything tha...

Lord Bach | 699 c685-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on behalf of the Committee for moving the amendment in the name...

Lord Fowler | 699 c684-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103: 103: After Clause 41, insert the following new Clause— ““Meaning of ““dis...

Lord Bach | 699 c684 (Link to this contribution) I criticised the former Conservative Government’s criminal justice Acts and the noble Lord, Lord Hen...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c683 (Link to this contribution) I have known many more of this Government’s Bills which were just as bad as this one.

Lord Bach | 699 c683 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree that this is the worst Bill, or whatever the phrase was that the noble Lord used.

Lord Bach | 699 c678-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken and, in particular, to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, ...

Lord Bach | 699 c679-80 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that. I am saying that what to do with an offender is a matter for the courts. If so...

Lord Judd | 699 c679 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is trying to take the observations very seriously, but is he really saying that teams t...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c681 (Link to this contribution) In support of the noble and learned Baroness, I say that public confidence is important—everybody ac...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c681 (Link to this contribution) I had no intention of being understood as saying that the public’s perception did not matter. I wond...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c681-2 (Link to this contribution) This is a good moment for me to respond to the Minister. I share entirely the noble Lord’s observati...

Lord Bach | 699 c680 (Link to this contribution) I would expect the youth offending team to have gone back to the court earlier than that to say, ““W...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c680 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister help us in this situation? If a member of a youth offending team were to go to cour...

Lord Bach | 699 c681 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness, who has great experience which the Committee knows well, asked why i...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c680-1 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may refer to two of the Minister’s points. First, why does what the public think matter so...

Lord Bach | 699 c673 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. He knows from what my noble friend said that we will be look...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 699 c673 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to detain the Committee, as we have had a thorough examination of the issues—

Lord Judd | 699 c676-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, will forgive my saying this—make a practice ...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c674-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 101: 101: Clause 35, page 27, line 27, leave out from ““occasion”” to end of l...

Lord Bach | 699 c674 (Link to this contribution) I will make a brief attempt to answer the noble Lord, but I hope that he will be content with the fa...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 699 c673-4 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Bach, pre-empted what I was going to say. I had heard what the Minister said an...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c677-8 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment for all the reasons already outlined, and I agree particularly with th...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 699 c677 (Link to this contribution) I, too, heartily support the amendment moved by—I shall persist in calling him my noble friend—the n...

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c677 (Link to this contribution) It would be presumptuous to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, has said beyond that I strongly s...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c671 (Link to this contribution) That is the current test, so why change it?

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c671 (Link to this contribution) It is regularised.

Lord Kingsland | 699 c671-2 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister and to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. On Clause ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c671 (Link to this contribution) It is no more than that. I shall certainly be happy to write to noble Lords with further clarificati...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c672 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, makes another very good point. I would have thought it was ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c672 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that if he were not acting in the public interest, judicial review would f...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c672-3 (Link to this contribution) That is a characteristically helpful intervention by the noble Lord, and I am grateful for his havin...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c672 (Link to this contribution) As I have been advised that this is needed to regularise the position, would it be helpful and const...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c673 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 93A: 93A: Clause 29, page 20, line 32, at end insert— ““(8A) The reference in ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c712 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Baroness’s amendment and could not have agreed more with every word that she sai...

Lord Judd | 699 c711-2 (Link to this contribution) It would be impossible to rise with more positive feelings towards an amendment than my feelings tow...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c705-6 (Link to this contribution) I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that it is always important that resources in people and m...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c703-4 (Link to this contribution) We are now concerned with the conditions that can be attached to youth conditional cautions, as set ...

Lord Bach | 699 c707-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment. Most of us in the Committee understand about the passi...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c702-3 (Link to this contribution) In a sense, our arguments are the same as for the last group of amendments. Again we start with the ...

Lord Judd | 699 c701 (Link to this contribution) In encouraging my noble friend once again to take seriously the thoughts behind the amendment, it oc...

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon | 699 c718 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 699 c717-8 (Link to this contribution) First, I did not say and I have never said that there is not a need for secure provision for young p...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c712-3 (Link to this contribution) It is impossible to underestimate the support that I would like to give to the noble Baroness, Lady ...

Lord Bach | 699 c714-5 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the noble Baroness who has tabled these two amendments. Her record in this field is...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c691 (Link to this contribution) For the reasons that have already been given, the clause should not stand part of the Bill.

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c691-2 (Link to this contribution) As I was about to say—a little prematurely, for which I apologise—I do not propose to withdraw this ...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c692 (Link to this contribution) True it is that there is wide discretion contained in the clause, but it is precisely because of the...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c692 (Link to this contribution) I find it quite extraordinary that the CCRC should not have regard to the most recent decision of th...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c692-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103A: 103A: Clause 98, page 68, line 39, leave out ““16 and 17”” and insert ““...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c694 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness introduces the question of machismo and ““up-tariffing””. I assure her that the f...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c694 (Link to this contribution) So that I can understand the Minister correctly, I assume from what he said about a staged approach ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c694-5 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 104: 104: After Clause 98, insert the following new Clause— ““Use of a conditi...

Lord Judd | 699 c695 (Link to this contribution) In supporting the amendment in the sense that I hope it will receive serious consideration by my nob...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c698 (Link to this contribution) In Kings Heath we talk of little else than the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Of course I do...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c698 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has said that people have to take a message from this Bill. Which youngster is ever goi...

Baroness Carnegy of Lour | 699 c699 (Link to this contribution) When we discuss the issues surrounding young people, the Government do not seem to recognise the fac...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c699 (Link to this contribution) We all know that when you go to court, it is serious; everyone absolutely understands that. But I wa...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c698 (Link to this contribution) In view of what I said yesterday, I am certainly not going to suggest that magistrates are failing i...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c700 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Baroness is always persuasive in her arguments. Of course I listen, but if I s...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 699 c699 (Link to this contribution) I am finding all this quite unbelievable. As my noble friend said earlier, we are not dealing with s...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c699 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure where we are going with this. I disagree strongly with what the noble Baroness has jus...

Baroness Stern | 699 c699 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord and I know that he wants to bring this to an end. Of course n...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c700 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the Minister will listen to what is becoming a consensus of the Committee so that p...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c696 (Link to this contribution) I really do not understand that. A conditional discharge is given once to a child. Within two years ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c696 (Link to this contribution) The very fact that we are discussing youth conditional cautions is a reflection that we wish to see ...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c696 (Link to this contribution) I understood the situation to be exactly how the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, described it. If you ad...

Baroness Stern | 699 c695-6 (Link to this contribution) I should like to add my voice to that of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, in respect of this very sensible...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c698 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with the noble Baroness that early interventions aimed at preventing reoffending a...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c698 (Link to this contribution) Why does the Minister think it is necessary to micromanage the way in which magistrates reach their ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c697 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, there will always be differences between the adult criminal justice system and the youth cr...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c696-7 (Link to this contribution) The point about the youth conditional caution is that it is an out-of-court disposal aimed at reduci...

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c697 (Link to this contribution) What balance is achieved by discriminating in this way against young offenders? This policy does not...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c688-9 (Link to this contribution) I am relieved on the one hand and saddened on the other at the Government’s decision in this regard....

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c689 (Link to this contribution) I wish to oppose the Question whether Clause 43 shall stand part of the Bill. Clause 43 negatived. ...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c688 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that Clauses 42 and 43 will not stand part.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c688 (Link to this contribution) There is nothing more to be said but I thought that Clause 43 would also have to be called.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c688 (Link to this contribution) I wish to oppose the Question whether Clause 42 shall stand part of the Bill.

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 699 c691 (Link to this contribution) There is a further blemish in the clause, as there was in Clauses 42 and 43, which is the seeming ar...

Lord Kingsland | 699 c690 (Link to this contribution) I am one of the signatories to opposing the Question that Clause 44 stand part of the Bill. I respec...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c690-1 (Link to this contribution) The mischief of the clause as drafted is that it gives no guidance as to how the discretion of the c...

Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 699 c689-90 (Link to this contribution) This clause is a technical and, as I hope to show, unnecessary amendment to the powers of the Court ...

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 699 c690 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, I do not propose to withdraw—

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 699 c708-11 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 115: 115: After Clause 102, insert the following new Clause— ““Treatment of 17...

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c704 (Link to this contribution) Following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said, I shall take this opportunity to voice aga...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c708 (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule 19 agreed to. Cla...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c706 (Link to this contribution) Well, not really, because the noble Lord suggests that the provision equates a magistrates’ court wi...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c706-7 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 114: 114: Schedule 19, page 249, line 34, leave out from ““(3))”” to end of li...

Baroness Hayman | 699 c703 (Link to this contribution) I am looking at the Clerk. The amendment was not moved. Please speak to Amendment No. 107.

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c703 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 107: 107: Schedule 18, page 243, leave out lines 36 to 39 and insert ““a condi...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c700 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that the Government are responding to the red tops, but the noble Lord obviously think...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c700 (Link to this contribution) I was responding to a comment made earlier when it was unworthily suggested that the Government are ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c700 (Link to this contribution) I may have unworthily suggested that on an earlier amendment, but not in relation to this one. I ho...

Lord Ramsbotham | 699 c701 (Link to this contribution) I share this unease. I am extremely glad that on an earlier amendment the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, i...

Earl of Onslow | 699 c715 (Link to this contribution) Is not the logic of that that there should be special homes for 17 year-olds only? The Minister has ...

Lord Bach | 699 c715-7 (Link to this contribution) That may be a solution for some, it is true. At the moment they go into youth offender institutions,...

Lord Bach | 699 c717 (Link to this contribution) We all agree that if we possibly can we should keep young people out of custody. Where, alas, that i...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c713 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to speak on this amendment but the powerful speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Link...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c703 (Link to this contribution) I heard what the Minister said, and we will reflect upon this. However, at this stage, I beg leave t...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c671 (Link to this contribution) Why would the Secretary of State want to recall a prisoner on licence if it was not expedient and in...

Baroness Butler-Sloss | 699 c677 (Link to this contribution) The wording of the amendment, which I entirely support, has an important limitation to it which is i...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 699 c671 (Link to this contribution) This is simply to regularise the position.

Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 699 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) The recollection of my noble friend Lord Onslow about the short, sharp shock detention centres is re...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 699 c692 (Link to this contribution) Is not the effect of this that the Court of Appeal may feel obliged to allow an appeal under current...

Baroness Stern | 699 c697 (Link to this contribution) I want to make sure that I have understood the Minister. I believe that we are talking about relativ...

Baroness Falkner of Margravine | 699 c700-1 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 105: 105: Schedule 18, page 243, leave out lines 22 and 23 The noble Baroness...

Lord Judd | 699 c717 (Link to this contribution) I hope my noble friend will not mind me pointing out that while he has given us an impressive array ...

Subjects

Disability

Children

Criminal proceedings

Appeals

Armed forces

Crimes of violence

Age

Alternatives to prison

AIDS

HIV infection

Discrimination

Offenders

Parole

Prisoners

Life imprisonment

Police cautions

Prisoners' release

Rehabilitation

Sentencing

Young people

Sexual offences

Young offenders

Reoffenders

Legislation

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08

Link

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