Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that it is always important that resources in people and money are available to make sure that we can implement legislation. That is often the reason why Governments reject sensible amendments in your Lordships’ House. I do not disagree with the noble Lord about the general principle. Of course, circumstances can change between Bills being developed and their being implemented. It is our intention to make youth conditional cautions work as effectively as possible because we see them as a sensible approach to preventing young people coming into court. That is why we enjoy a great deal of support on the general principle of youth conditional cautions. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, seemed to be trying to micromanage what would happen in court, because the provisions are in essence discretionary. I would have thought that we could rely on that good judgment to which he referred when speaking to earlier amendments and allow sentencers to exercise appropriate discretion. The noble Lord is right: there is no point in setting conditions that are set to be failed and which then lead to young people going to court and perhaps ending up in custody. Therefore, the conditions need to be appropriate and to have an element of seriousness; equally, they need to be conditions with which it is expected, after assessment, that the young person can comply. That is what we are seeking to do and we should give sufficient discretion in these matters. I have already indicated that we are sympathetic towards the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, which would extend the use of youth conditional cautions to people younger than 16 or 17. We will have to look at the impact on some of the other provisions, such as issues to do with financial penalties or the number of hours. However, the discretion in the Bill would probably be acceptable for other age groups as well. The financial punishment may be appropriate. The considerations and circumstances that will need to be taken into account will be specified in the code of practice, which will provide an excellent opportunity to reflect on some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, who said that we must not set conditions that are set to be failed. Not every young person will need a programme of interventions. I accept that we have to be careful not to draw all young people into extensive interventions, which may thoroughly disrupt their lives. We want to avoid creating the perverse outcomes that the noble Lord suggested. However, sometimes a fine is appropriate; it will allow a young person to put the matter behind them and might be effective in preventing reoffending. The noble Lord referred to the number of hours. The provision sets the maximum number of hours that a young person is required to attend a specified place at a specified time. While it is appropriate for there to be an absolute time limit, we should surely allow people at the local level, in considering the young person concerned, to have discretion up to those 20 hours. The noble Lord said that rehabilitation conditions would last much longer than any maximum hours set. Any condition in respect of rehabilitation has to be reasonable and proportionate. I am certainly happy to make sure that this point is dealt with in the code of practice. I hope that the noble Lord will think that that is a reasonable answer on this matter.