Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

That may be a solution for some, it is true. At the moment they go into youth offender institutions, which are not adult prisons. If we rule out remand into local authority care, what would non-secure remand look like? It needs to be more robust than a bail package because it is different from bail but less restrictive than a custodial sentence. In effect, are we looking at the creation of a whole remand placement structure exclusively for 17 year-olds, which is the point the noble Earl has made so well? A great deal of detailed work has been undertaken to find a solution to this issue. I hope, even if the noble Baroness is disappointed by the conclusion we have reached tonight about her amendment, that she and the Committee will accept that a lot of work is still going on to try to solve this issue. It is not straightforward. There is a whole catalogue of linking factors that, with great respect, her amendment does not cover; for example, the status of 17 year-olds under police bail, which is covered by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. That would need to be examined to consider the impact on the police in terms of accommodation for 17 year-olds and issues such as the provision of appropriate adults. We also need to look at the care status of young people under such a provision. Frankly, we need to consider the Bail Act itself and whether it offers us the sort of powers we need to ensure that 17 year-olds are remanded where it is appropriate. For example, we have identified that 17 year-olds who are likely to interfere with witnesses and have been refused bail may end up with a non-secure remand. That cannot be right. The offence of interfering with witnesses is one of the most serious and goes against the principles of justice more than any other, and 17 year-olds can commit it just as much as adults can. Surely the Committee will agree that that cannot be right and that we are failing in our duty to protect victims and the public if we do not address that problem. The Government have not lost sight of this issue. We are aware of our obligations to 17 year-olds in particular, under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and following our response to Youth Justice—The Next Steps. I repeat: we regret that we have not found a solution. Before I finish with Amendment No. 115 and move on to Amendment No. 116, I should deal with the noble Baroness having mentioned 6,561 as being the 2005-06 statistic of 17 year-olds remanded. In fact, I am advised that that figure is the total number of young people under 18 who are remanded; the number of 17 year-olds was 3,194. That is still a high number. The Committee might be interested to know that the numbers of young people under 18 in custody now—that is, on 15 February, the last date for which figures are available—are 2,353 in youth offender institutions, 242 in secure training centres and 209 in secure children’s homes, a total of 2,804. Not in reply, but adding, to what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, was telling us, the Government have created completely separate estates for boys and girls, separating over-18s from under-18s. Girls under 17 are in secure training centres or secure children’s homes. Girls under 17 are in four new specific units built between 2004 and 2006. The advice that I have received, which was specifically asked for, is that there are no young people under the age of 18 in Her Majesty’s adult prisons at the moment. A huge amount remains to be done, but I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will accept, as I hope will other Members of the Committee, that that is an improvement on the position that prevailed previously and during the time when he was doing his excellent job a few years ago. As to her amendment, the noble Baroness could not be more right than to bring this anomaly and possible solution to the Committee. Her amendment is defective because this is such a complex issue and has many more difficult problems attached to it; but we are working hard to find a solution and we would be grateful if noble Lords could help us with that. I turn briefly to Amendment No. 116. I shall try not to repeat myself, although I have to make some of the same points. In some cases when we need to safeguard young people—and in most cases regarding children under 15—the appropriate place will be a secure children’s home. However, children’s homes, as I have said, are for children. Most young people of 17 are not children in the same way that a 13 or 14 year-old is; and this is important for safeguarding them. Surveys indicate that most young people in custody are not worried about their safety, but those who feel unsafe believe that they are at risk from other trainees. Putting 17 year-olds, who may be large or aggressive or even both, together with children some years younger would not only make the younger children feel unsafe, but might put them at risk. We do not think that we should go down that path. However, we are committed to improving the safeguarding of young people in custody and we would argue that we have done a great deal to improve the conditions in which they are accommodated. Despite what another expert in this field, my noble friend Lord Judd, has argued, our record is not bad. To give the latest example, a new unit for more vulnerable 15 year-old and 16 year-old boys is being developed at Wetherby young offender institution. We believe that that is a practical response to a difficult issue. I hope the noble Baroness will agree that we are taking the matter seriously and that she will withdraw her amendment.