Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

This is a good moment for me to respond to the Minister. I share entirely the noble Lord’s observations. The more I listen to the Minister, the more I think that perhaps one reason why the Government are unhappy about this proposal is that they feel that it threatens their own flagship provision in the Bill—the youth rehabilitation order. Their view is that rather than have a second referral order, the next step should be to go to the youth rehabilitation order. However, we have strong statistical evidence that referral orders work, relatively speaking, extremely well. All that we are asking the Government to do is to build on success. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, the amendment contains very powerful restrictions to ensure that the provision would always be used responsibly. It would be used only on the basis of a recommendation from a member of the youth offending team, an officer of a local probation team or a social worker from a local authority. Those are responsible people and they would not make that recommendation unless they thought that there was at least a reasonable chance of a second referral order working. As the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater of Butterstone, said, not only does it often take a lot of time and painstaking planning to put a referral order package together, but they may be dealing with people who have a chaotic lifestyle. The relationship between the individual and the team is one of great sensitivity and requires enormous input by dedicated parties, so they will not recommend a second order if they think that it will not work. A number of noble Lords, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, took the Minister up on his concern that it might seem that repeat offenders were not being dealt with effectively if there was an option of a second referral order. To that there are at least two responses. First, considerations about youth justice matters are not the same as considerations about adult offenders. That is a matter of this country having entered into a range of international obligations by which we abide. Secondly, the only reason for providing the option of the second order is because in some circumstances it would be the most effective way in which to deal with repeat offenders, rather than all the other options, including the YROs. The Opposition feel that this is a really important issue for the Government and we are dismayed that they feel unable to give any ground on the matter. I do not think that the amendment needs any refining. If I may say so, I think that it has the balance exactly right, and we shall certainly return to it on Report. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendment No. 102 not moved.] Clause 35 agreed to. Clauses 36 to 39 agreed to. Schedule 5 [Youth default orders: modification of provisions applying to youth rehabilitation orders]: