UK Parliament / Open data

Work and Families Bill

Debate on bills on Wednesday, 18 January 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Alan Johnson. The answering member was Baroness Laing of Elderslie.
Work and Families Bill. Report stage and third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Passed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
441 c848-908 
Session
2005-06
Department
Department of Trade and Industry
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Work and Families Bill. As amended in Standing Committee A.
Wednesday, 14 December 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Charles Walker | 441 c903-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a privilege and honour to follow the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan) because I had the gr...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c902-3 (Link to this contribution) I will, indeed, and I am grateful, I was coming to the point that the Bill, as part of that jigsaw,...

Show all contributions (168)
Norman Lamb | 441 c901 (Link to this contribution) And from Conservative Members—I am sorry to have left them out. I understand why the provision to...
Speaker | 441 c902 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will now begin to address his remarks to the present Bill.
Sadiq Khan | 441 c901-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a real pleasure to speak on Third Reading to a united Chamber. There was, in fact, a broadly u...
Norman Lamb | 441 c901 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear the supportive comments from Labour Members—
Norman Lamb | 441 c900-1 (Link to this contribution) I see that the Minister is nodding at that. My purpose is merely to ensure that the Government con...
Norman Lamb | 441 c899-900 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I led the campaign for compensation for women who were discharged from the armed force...
Norman Lamb | 441 c899 (Link to this contribution) No; I could not possibly comment on that company’s commitment. For example, from the very start, thi...
Norman Lamb | 441 c898-9 (Link to this contribution) I join the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) in thanking the Secretary of State and the two...
Julie Morgan | 441 c897-8 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief, in order to allow the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) to attend the pa...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c897 (Link to this contribution) As the right hon. Gentleman says rightly from a sedentary position, there is a right to request. I ...
Charles Walker | 441 c905;441 c904 (Link to this contribution) A new child is often likened to having a house guest who never leaves.
Mike Weir | 441 c905;441 c904-5 (Link to this contribution) And probably costs much more, but we will not go there. On Second Reading, I referred to surrogate ...
Speaker | 441 c905 (Link to this contribution) Order. I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I ask him to confine his remarks to the B...
Mike Weir | 441 c905-6;441 c905 (Link to this contribution) I am coming back to the Bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I take your admonition. My point is that th...
Mike Weir | 441 c904-5;441 c904 (Link to this contribution) It will probably come as no surprise for the House to learn that we do not always see eye to eye wit...
Norman Lamb | 441 c908;441 c907 (Link to this contribution) Would those other ways perhaps include adjusting the percentage repayment for statutory maternity an...
Peter Bone | 441 c906 (Link to this contribution) A family-friendly Bill is bound to be welcomed by Conservative Members, and I certainly do so. This ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c906 (Link to this contribution) At least he can wave hello to daddy. [Laughter.]
Peter Bone | 441 c906 (Link to this contribution) I used to run a small business, and every employee was female and either had children or could have ...
Alan Johnson | 441 c906-8;441 c906-7 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to say a couple of things in response to t...
Speaker | 441 c908;441 c907 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am afraid that I will have to ask the hon. Gentleman to take that up with the Secretary of ...
Alan Johnson | 441 c908;441 c907-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for North Norfolk also talked about full consultation on hours and whether four week...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c850 (Link to this contribution) That is recognised in the 104.5 per cent. that can be returned to small businesses. That percentage ...
Norman Lamb | 441 c850 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for making that point. Page 2 of the HMRC paper states that the additi...
Helen Jones | 441 c849 (Link to this contribution) What estimate can the hon. Gentleman give of the number of employers who would wish to transfer th...
Norman Lamb | 441 c849-50 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give an estimate of the number, and it is not necessary to do so to make the case. The HMRC...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c849 (Link to this contribution) If we accept the figure of £38 million that the hon. Gentleman gives, what benefit to small business...
Norman Lamb | 441 c849 (Link to this contribution) The paper refers to a total net benefit of £1.1 million. The figure for small employers, defined by ...
Norman Lamb | 441 c848-9 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. Although we strongly support the purposes of ...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 441 c853 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there seems to be a dichotomy in the Government’s position? They are ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c853-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree. My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I was about to mention the cost question, the Minis...
Norman Lamb | 441 c851-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes. A very limited benefit will apply to only the very smallest employers. As my hon. Friend rightl...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c852 (Link to this contribution) We want the Bill to work, which is why we have joined the Liberal Democrats in tabling new clause 1....
Mark Prisk | 441 c852 (Link to this contribution) I hate to interrupt my hon. Friend’s flow, but does she realise that the people to whom she just r...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c852-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct. It is undoubtedly true that when we talk about helping parents and carers...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c850 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to take all the hon. Gentleman’s time, and we will have a great deal of time for the d...
Norman Lamb | 441 c850 (Link to this contribution) The point is that that part of the scheme will not do what the Minister says it will do: it is not i...
Alan Reid | 441 c851 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, because the 104.5 per cent. figure is based on a certain level of em...
Norman Lamb | 441 c851 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for those comments. If we can take them as a willingness to consider t...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c855-6 (Link to this contribution) It is not just a question of who pays; it is a question of who administers the regulations. The hon....
Mike Weir | 441 c856-7 (Link to this contribution) I welcome this opportunity to make a small contribution to this debate. As I said on Second Reading,...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c855 (Link to this contribution) Not at all—far from it. I did not think that I was wrongly quoted in the Financial Times; I though...
Michael Jabez Foster | 441 c855 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Lady simply talking about who should pay for the regulations, rather than whether the re...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c857 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is describing the reason why we want to consult on how to deal with the additio...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c855 (Link to this contribution) I read with interest the Financial Times this morning, which says, ““Tories back concerns over paren...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c855 (Link to this contribution) Yes—exactly what new clause 1 proposes. The entire content of my speech is the answer to the hon. Ge...
Michael Jabez Foster | 441 c855 (Link to this contribution) It is enormously difficult to decide what regulation to get rid of when another is introduced. The h...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c854-5 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and that is exactly the point that I am about to make. We are asking businesses to give extra...
Mark Prisk | 441 c863-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), who, like ev...
Mark Prisk | 441 c864-5 (Link to this contribution) That reaffirms my concern because of the difference between an apparent benefit of £1 million to emp...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c865-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) for tabling new clause 1. It was not unexpec...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 441 c858-60 (Link to this contribution) When speaking in this place, it is always a good rule of thumb to speak about something that one is ...
Mike Weir | 441 c857-8 (Link to this contribution) If the figures are correct, it would not appear to do so. I must echo what the hon. Member for Eppin...
Alan Reid | 441 c860 (Link to this contribution) The Bill is important and I welcome the rights that it extends to working families, particularly the...
John Redwood | 441 c861-3 (Link to this contribution) I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) and other hon. Members wh...
Alan Reid | 441 c860-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) is correct. The Government made a commitme...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c893 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for assisting me, because I have got it wrong. When I said 28 days excludin...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c893 (Link to this contribution) That is the point. Does it mean 28 days including public holidays or 28 days excluding public holida...
Jim McGovern | 441 c892-3 (Link to this contribution) In Committee, some hon. Members were surprised that the hon. Lady and I seemed to agree about annual...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c892 (Link to this contribution) It depends how one interprets those words. [Laughter.] My interpretation is that my right hon. Frien...
Alan Johnson | 441 c892 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady confirm that in the dim and distant past—1 January 2006—the right hon. Member for...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c892 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by correcting what the Secretary of State has just said about the attitude of my right...
Alan Johnson | 441 c891-2 (Link to this contribution) I remember when we dealt with the Employment Bill in 2001. The hon. Gentleman’s memory is faulty. Co...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c896-7 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his frankness and for his apology. The Minister said in Committ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c894-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will of course adhere to your ruling. I do not wish to digress...
Peter Bone | 441 c895 (Link to this contribution) In Committee, I thought that the publication of the regulations was more of a promise that an aspira...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c895-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is correct. It is difficult to consider the Bill properly without knowing what the re...
Alan Johnson | 441 c896 (Link to this contribution) On Second Reading, I expressed the desire and hope that the regulations would be ready while the Bil...
Keith Vaz | 441 c894 (Link to this contribution) It was I who spoke from a sedentary position. I said that we are delighted by the decision taken by ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c893-4 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman rightly says that it is illegal. We recently spent a great deal of time on ...
Speaker | 441 c894 (Link to this contribution) Order. To save any further confusion, perhaps we could concentrate on the Third Reading of the Bill....
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c894 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman. It was not quite immediately—if it had been, I would be even older than ...
Norman Lamb | 441 c872 (Link to this contribution) Busy in North Norfolk, yes. One is in London and the other is in North Norfolk. [Laughter.] I am get...
Speaker | 441 c872 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he should get on with discussing new clause 1....
Norman Lamb | 441 c872-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point is that we Members are compensated fo...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c873 (Link to this contribution) Has not the Minister demonstrated that the Government simply do not understand how small businesses ...
Norman Lamb | 441 c871-2 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. There must be an element of independence in the RIA process, for, without it, the ...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c872 (Link to this contribution) The assessors did take account of those figures, but the Government are taking a number of other mea...
Norman Lamb | 441 c872 (Link to this contribution) With due respect, I am not entirely sure what that intervention was meant to achieve.
Norman Lamb | 441 c872 (Link to this contribution) In that case, I welcome it, because the Minister is a good friend. [Laughter.] That has clearly caus...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c879 (Link to this contribution) Throughout the passage of the Bill, the hon. Gentleman has made it his business to misinterpret ever...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) The proof of that can of course be found in two things, to deal with any assertion of misinterpret...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c877 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. New clause 3 might appear somewhat opaque, bu...
Norman Lamb | 441 c873 (Link to this contribution) One does get that impression. The only Member to speak against the new clause was the Minister. He w...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c878-9 (Link to this contribution) I see what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I would say that we need not so much a level playing fi...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c879 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with what the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) said. It is clear that she has...
Mark Tami | 441 c878 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady accept that what we need is a level playing field? Will not small businesses that...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 441 c868 (Link to this contribution) Given the doubts expressed today about the costs and the burden on small businesses in particular, c...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c868 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give the House an assurance. The Government do not think that the direct payment schem...
Mark Prisk | 441 c867 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that the proof is in actions, not words, but the business community clearly unders...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c867 (Link to this contribution) In Committee, as I hope to show later, I discussed areas in which the Government are helping busines...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c867-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may attack the CD-ROM proposal, but we have regular meetings with small businesse...
Norman Lamb | 441 c866 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that, as a result of the consultation the employers’ representatives to who...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c866-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. I shall come on to the work of the Committee later. The hon. Member for Epping Forest...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c867 (Link to this contribution) May I reiterate that, whatever impression has been given, we support the basic principle of the Bill...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c867 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the hon. Lady is sincere and I accept the view of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr...
Robert Smith | 441 c871 (Link to this contribution) Is this not yet another illustration of why we need an independent body to assess the quality of reg...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c870 (Link to this contribution) With due respect to hon. Members, the bulk of the reason for their position is that the CBI has with...
Norman Lamb | 441 c870-1 (Link to this contribution) Liberal Democrat Members are not satisfied with the Government’s response and will seek to divide th...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c869-70 (Link to this contribution) I fear that, however eloquently I try to explain the position in relation to direct payments, Opposi...
Mark Prisk | 441 c870 (Link to this contribution) The key word in the new clause is that companies ““may”” transfer responsibility. Such companies can...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c868-9 (Link to this contribution) I am prepared to accept the word of the payroll experts and the experts at Revenue and Customs who h...
Norman Lamb | 441 c869 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that, even though there are some new burdens in passing information over, e...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c868 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not embarrassed, but I understand why the hon. Gentleman is trying to distort—that might be...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c868 (Link to this contribution) If we accept the Minister’s calculation of what the provision would cost the Government or the taxpa...
Mark Prisk | 441 c868 (Link to this contribution) Is not the Minister embarrassed that what would cost £1 million if run by business will, it appears,...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c885 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend made that offer—if it was possible—but he also said that we need to ensure that...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c885-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has been most convincing. He used the magic phrase that always makes me sit up and pay ...
Mark Tami | 441 c886 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that Labour Members find it very difficult to know what ““now”” means, because the co...
Alan Reid | 441 c887 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is quite right that the matter is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Agr...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c886-7 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 11, line 27, at end insert— '(4A) Regulations under this sec...
Mike Weir | 441 c887 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to speak to the technical amendment, but I have been interested by what hon. Memb...
Russell Brown | 441 c887 (Link to this contribution) While I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Minister indicated that the amendment is technical, I sha...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c887-8 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that hon. Members’ contributions show that we were right to table the amendment. This i...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c887 (Link to this contribution) I also realise that the amendment is technical, so I do not intend to speak for long. Devolution is ...
Charles Walker | 441 c889 (Link to this contribution) Will there be a requirement for notice or any form of redundancy payment to be given to an individua...
Meg Munn | 441 c889 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Bill extends the notice that women returning from maternit...
Lord Bellingham | 441 c890 (Link to this contribution) I was not on the Committee for this Bill, and I would like to ask the Minister and her colleagues a ...
Norman Lamb | 441 c889-90 (Link to this contribution) If my amendment on a related point has triggered the Government to spot this anomaly, I am obvious...
Meg Munn | 441 c889 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that nothing in the Bill changes the current arrangements, and clearly the emp...
Charles Walker | 441 c889 (Link to this contribution) A woman returning to work could say, ““I’ll be coming back in two or three months””. Will there be a...
Lord Bellingham | 441 c891 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will remember that, for a couple of years during the last Parliament, I shadowed him wh...
Alan Johnson | 441 c890-1 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. This Bill, which has enjoyed a positive re...
Meg Munn | 441 c890 (Link to this contribution) First, I am delighted that the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) is delighted. Secondly, t...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend spots the elephant trap that the Opposition wish us to fall into. As for the Trojan h...
Mark Tami | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) : The Opposition claim to support this measure, so why have they tabled a new clause that would make...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. The hon. Lady has had the opportunity to make her contribution, welcome as ...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was simply trying to answer, pleasantly and courteously, the sp...
Speaker | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not think that we want to go down the road of history. The hon. Gentleman ought really t...
Speaker | 441 c880-1 (Link to this contribution) The Chair is reluctant to get involved in the debate, but the hon. Gentleman should be careful that ...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan) is not interpreting ...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c881 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that is what I was doing—
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c884-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to hold this debate. The hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) has ...
Mike Weir | 441 c883-4 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification. Indeed, if she had used the word ““effect”” instead of...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c883 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. If the new clause does not seem sufficiently wide, its wordi...
Mike Weir | 441 c882-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan) was a little hard on the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. ...
Charles Walker | 441 c881-2 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make a vicious and premeditated attack on the Minister, and I make no apology for doing so...
Norman Lamb | 441 c881 (Link to this contribution) I was becoming confused by the talk of elephant traps and Trojan horses, but I think that I unders...
Sadiq Khan | 441 c881 (Link to this contribution) I hear what you say, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The problem with new clause 3 is the burden that it would ...
Speaker | 441 c881 (Link to this contribution) Order. If the hon. Gentleman had been doing so, I would not have made the remarks that I have just m...
Norman Lamb | 441 c885 (Link to this contribution) On Second Reading, the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry undertook to attempt to get the dra...
Meg Munn | 441 c888-9 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 20, line 9, at end insert— 1A In section 106 of ERA 1996 (rep...
Norman Lamb | 441 c854 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady referred to the figure of £400,000 as the cost for small businesses and made the point...
Gerry Sutcliffe | 441 c864 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) used the figure of £38 million when he explained the...
Charles Walker | 441 c893 (Link to this contribution) I understand that the current provision is 20 days, of which eight days are bank holidays and 12 day...
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c877-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that he will wait, and that is fair enough, but I believe that even he does not kn...
Mark Tami | 441 c880 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?
Baroness Laing of Elderslie | 441 c886 (Link to this contribution) No, the problem is that Labour Members are very worried about the rising popularity of the Conservat...
Subjects
Conditions of employment
Devolved matters
Adoption
Administration
Agriculture
Costs
Families
Eligibility
Leave
Dismissal
Flexible working
Parents
Pay
Payments
Maternity pay
Paternity leave
Maternity leave
Scotland
Small businesses
Payment methods
Legislation
Work and Families Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top