UK Parliament / Open data

Succession to the Crown Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Thursday, 28 February 2013, in the House of Lords.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
743 cc1212-1264 
Session
2012-13
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Proceeding contributions
Lord True | 743 c1212 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord True

3A: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—

“Royal ...

Lord True | 743 cc1212-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for not having contributed at Second Reading. I had put my name down to spe...


Show all contributions (132)
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 743 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will be brief. I am sure that the Minister will give good answers to the questions ra...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I share some of the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord True. The plain fact is ...

Lord Elton | 743 c1216 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I observe that this matter is outwith the terms of the Long Title. However, the Title h...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1216-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend Lord True for the amendment and for the sensitive and thoughtful way in w...

Lord Elton | 743 c1217 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope that my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench will take time to consider t...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1217 (Link to this contribution)

We will certainly reflect on this matter and I can assure my noble friend that considerable consi...

Lord Elton | 743 c1217 (Link to this contribution)

I accept that that is the current position. I hope that we shall be reassured if it remains the s...

Lord True | 743 cc1217-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have participated in this short debate and apologise for the...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1218 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Cormack

4: Clause 2, page 1, line 7, at end insert “provided that agree...

Lord Cormack | 743 cc1218-1220 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, with Clause 2 we come to the kernel of the Bill. As your Lordships will know, that clau...

Lord Deben | 743 cc1220-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I associate myself with the final few words of my noble friend Lord Cormack about the n...

Lord Luce | 743 cc1222-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the objective of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, althoug...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 cc1223-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for being unable to be here earlier, as I had a long-standing engagement, a...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have some sympathy with the objective of my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment, bu...

Lord Fellowes | 743 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I, too, much regret that I was unavoidably prevented from attending Second Reading but ...

Lord James of Blackheath | 743 c1224 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Deben, have both got very close to being the first Peers i...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 743 cc1224-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this has been a very good debate and, has just been mentioned, will inform a number of ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1226-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack for introducing this amendment. It has generated a...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1227 (Link to this contribution)

What was the Government’s motivation in removing the prohibition on the heir to the Throne marryi...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1227-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it was both. It was to allow someone in the line of succession to the Throne to marry a...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1228 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his response, but not entirely convin...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1228 (Link to this contribution)

Tabled by

Lord Trefgarne

5: Clause 2, page 1, line 8, leave out subsection (2)

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1228 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this amendment, together with Amendments 6 to 9, go to the very heart of the issue we h...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1229 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

10: Clause 2, page 1, line 10, at end insert—

“(6) In t...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1229 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord Northbrook has attached his name to the amendment. It raises a slightly diff...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1229 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lord Trefgarne in his amendment. I first raised the i...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 cc1229-1230 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to this amendment and pick up a point which my noble and learned ...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 743 c1230 (Link to this contribution)

These amendments go to the heart of whether the present Anglican establishment in England can or ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1230-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Trefgarne indicated in moving this amendment, this is one of th...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 743 c1231 (Link to this contribution)

Before my noble and learned friend leaves that point, will he indicate whether the Government are...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1231-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am afraid that I will have to disappoint my noble friend in my answer. I do not belie...

Earl of Erroll | 743 c1232 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, perhaps I could help him on the Presbyterian Church of Scotland. E...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1232 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise if I did not make myself clear. I did not mean to suggest that it was as Supreme Gove...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1232 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend Lord Forsyth asks why. I think that it raises some very interesting issues that h...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1232 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the problem is that the noble Lord says this opens up greatly different avenues. Howeve...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1232 (Link to this contribution)

With all respect to my noble friend, that is the reason why the Government have not gone down thi...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, by ignoring the amendment of the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Trefgarne, it seems...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

This is not leaving it to chance. The law as it stands at the moment is quite clear that a Cathol...

Lord True | 743 c1233 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the problem was articulated at Second Reading, and I do not wish to extend this debate ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1233-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Trefgarne replies, perhaps I may pick up on a point where I...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1234 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I had not appreciated this until my noble and learned friend said it: he said that not ...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1234 (Link to this contribution)

I would like to add a word. There is a real danger that we are treating exceptionally complex mat...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have already responded to the point from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and indicate...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, at the end of Second Reading a week or so ago, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wa...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

11: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—

“R...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

I do not intend to speak to this amendment at any length. We have covered some of its detail, alt...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the position with regard to this amendment is very similar. It is a different structure...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

I understand what my noble and learned friend is saying. However, the amendment that I now propos...

Lord Lang of Monkton | 743 c1235 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Lang of Monkton

12: Clause 3, page 1, line 12, leave out “6” and insert...

Lord Lang of Monkton | 743 cc1235-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, from the deep and turbulent waters of Clause 2, we move to the only slightly less troub...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1237 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my Amendment 13 is in this group. I apologise to my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton f...

Lord Elton | 743 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 13A. I apologise for tabling it so late that it had to be added...

Lord Lexden | 743 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment that my noble friend Lord Lang has explained so fully ...

Lord Lyell | 743 c1240 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps I may chuck a very small pebble into this debate. My noble friend Lord Lang gav...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1241 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, briefly, I support my noble friend Lord Lang, who has proposed a perfectly sensible ame...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1241 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would like to make a short intervention at this point; it is a serious point. We are ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 743 c1242 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for his historical insight. As a mere co...

Earl of Erroll | 743 c1242 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, pointed out that families tend to be smaller, but we l...

Lord True | 743 cc1242-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my name is on the amendment but all the arguments were made in a compelling speech by m...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1243 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lang for this amendment, and not least for the way in whic...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1243 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, what representations have the Government had from anyone about their lives being imping...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1243-5 (Link to this contribution)

We have not had the representations that one would expect to receive. I suspect that under the pr...

Lord Lang of Monkton | 743 c1245 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I know that my noble and learned friend has a job to do, and that is to get this Bill t...

Lord Lang of Monkton | 743 c1245 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may finish my argument before he denounces or deals with it. Queen Victoria would then ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1246 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise if my noble friend misunderstood me; I said that no one whom he mentioned, who had go...

Lord Lang of Monkton | 743 c1246 (Link to this contribution)

If I burned the night oil I might be able to find an example. What my noble friend says simply un...

Lord Elton | 743 c1246 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Elton

13A: Clause 3, page 1, line 20, leave out “from the marriage”

...
Lord Elton | 743 cc1246-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my attention was drawn to the subject of my amendment by my interest in the apparent ha...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1248 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Elton for his amendment, which gives me a welcome opportun...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1248 (Link to this contribution)

To argue that it did not take up the time and to try and present this as treating an important co...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may add to my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s comments. At least 17 amendments were put dow...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

Unlike in your Lordships’ House, where every amendment tabled can be debated, amendments are sele...

Lord Lexden | 743 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

I shall belatedly put my question about what my noble and learned friend was saying about the pas...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

That is certainly my understanding. That is why we have the implementation clause. Even if we pas...

Lord Elton | 743 c1249 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as this is the realm in which the Queen is perceived as being principally the head, Sup...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will try to helpful. When we come to later amendments, if there is any further inform...

Lord Elton | 743 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

Is it a matter of interest in Canada, for instance, whether the number six, 12 or four appears in...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1250 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not think that I have seen the Canadian legislation but, in as much as it is givin...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1251 (Link to this contribution)

Why did the Government choose to go about this in this rather unconventional way? Why did the Exe...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1251 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not necessarily accept that it is unconventional. If this Parliament had decided w...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1251 (Link to this contribution)

Is my noble and learned friend saying that, because the Prime Minister has given that undertaking...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1251 (Link to this contribution)

As a supplementary, could I ask whether having been amended in the Commons, the Bill now has to b...

Earl of Erroll | 743 c1251 (Link to this contribution)

On that subject, I may be able to assist. It depends on whether they passed Acts in the parliamen...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1252 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, different realms do it in different ways. To pick up the point of the noble Lord, Lord ...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1252 (Link to this contribution)

I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend. Will he be kind enough to write to those of us...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1252 (Link to this contribution)

Further to that and, in a sense, even more pertinent, if this Parliament should pass Report stage...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1252 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Forsyth asked about being informed. Obviously, developments are in...

Lord Elton | 743 c1253 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble and learned friend. I think that my noble friend Lord Cor...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1253 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

15: Clause 3, page 2, line 16, at end insert—

“(7) No c...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1253 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a probing amendment. I am anxious to know—I believe that others may be as well—...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1253 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Trefgarne for raising an issue which I think he raised at ...

Lord True | 743 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I said earlier, is it not the case that in the early 1830s Augustus d'Este, the son ...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope that between now and the next stage the noble and learned Lord may on reflection...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

I shall certainly reflect on it further. It will not come as a surprise to my noble friend that t...

Lord True | 743 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

I do not wish to detain the House, but I think the contention of the gentleman concerned was that...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

If I may say so to my noble and learned friend, there is clearly scope for some further reflectio...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1254 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Trefgarne

16: Clause 5, page 2, line 29, leave out subsection (2) and i...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1255 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, under the Bill as it is presently before us, I refer to subsection (2) of Clause 5, whi...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1255 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, although not entirely relevant to the amendment, it would be very helpful if when my no...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 743 cc1255-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the two amendments in this group would give us an alternative way of bringing the Bill’...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may draw the Minister’s attention to something of which I have already given him notice...

Lord Elton | 743 c1256 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think that that falls outside the terms of the amendment. If I could return to my nob...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 cc1256-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I was quite struck by an argument that my noble and learned friend used in an earlier a...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1257 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my queries actually applied to Amendment 17, which I think is grouped with this one.

Lord True | 743 c1257 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, what has been said about the Deputy Prime Minister, for whom I share respect, is valid:...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 cc1257-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would like to say a few words about Amendment 17, which I believe is grouped with thi...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1258 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this picks up on some issues that were debated earlier. I should clarify that the reaso...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 743 c1258 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly was not involved in any lunches.

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1258-9 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord may not have been involved in any lunches but I think that he was involved in effo...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1259 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am happy to accept that and I am sure that my noble and learned friend means what he ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1259 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I repeat that I have not heard about any referendums. The Council of Australian Governm...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1259 (Link to this contribution)

Under Section 28 of the Constitution Act in Australia, the proposed law should be submitted in ea...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1259 (Link to this contribution)

As I indicated, it is up to each country to do it. We are not telling each country what to do and...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1259 (Link to this contribution)

I need to be absolutely certain that I understand what my noble and learned friend has been sayin...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1260 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I indicated on Second Reading, the intent is that it should be simultaneous commence...

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 743 c1260 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want to detain the House or split hairs but my noble and learned friend said, “If there ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1260 (Link to this contribution)

There is an agreement reached and it is up to each realm to implement the agreement. If that agre...

Lord Cormack | 743 c1260 (Link to this contribution)

My noble and learned friend deserves a gold medal for patience and good, even temper. He is much ...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 cc1260-1 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise to my noble friend because I forgot about his point on that. The Future Business inde...

Lord Trefgarne | 743 c1261 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1261 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Northbrook

18: The Schedule, page 3, leave out lines 3 to 9

Lord Northbrook | 743 cc1261-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we now move to the schedule to the Bill and another history lesson—the arcane matter of...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1262 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as my noble friend said, the amendment removes the consequential amendments to the Trea...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1262 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1262 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Northbrook

23: The Schedule, page 3, leave out lines 19 to 23

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1262 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I believe that the consequential amendment in the schedule is unnecessary, as it is alr...

Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 743 c1262 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend’s amendment removes the consequential amendments to the Regency Act, which are ne...

Lord Northbrook | 743 c1263 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for his response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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