UK Parliament / Open data

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 21 October 2014, in the House of Commons, led by Greg Clark. The answering member was Stephen Twigg.
Second reading. Agreed to on question. Programme motion. Agreed to on question. Money resolution. Agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
586 cc769-868 
Session
2014-15
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Recall of MPs Bill 2014-15
Thursday, 11 September 2014
Bills
House of Commons
Recall of MPs Bill 2014-15
Thursday, 9 October 2014
Research briefings
Proceeding contributions
Greg Clark | 586 c770 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Recall of MPs Bill fulfils a co...

Lord Field of Birkenhead | 586 c770 (Link to this contribution)

He has been recalled!


Show all contributions (356)
Greg Clark | 586 c770 (Link to this contribution)

I suspect that the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) would be robust in the face of suc...

Lord Robathan | 586 c770 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend may know that I have recalled myself and that I am not standing again at the...

Greg Clark | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

First, let me say that we will miss my right hon. Friend in this House, and we are sorry that he ...

Charles Walker | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend has said that there are people who have been sentenced to prison to whom thi...

Greg Clark | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

Clearly, this Bill would not apply retrospectively, but the two people who would have been caught...

Greg Clark | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes a reasonable point that those Members chose to resign. The fact that i...

Lord Field of Birkenhead | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

Is the issue not somewhat different? It is about not how we feel, but how our constituents feel. ...

Greg Clark | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) and the right hon. Gentlem...

Robert Neill | 586 c771 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is making a good case, and I shall certainly be supporting him. As the right...

Greg Clark | 586 c772 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his point. He is taking up a popular cause, but there are occ...

Greg Clark | 586 c772 (Link to this contribution)

Let me make a bit of progress. The diametrically opposed view is that a recall system should be i...

David Heath | 586 c772 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is explaining quite clearly the difference between what is misconduct an...

Greg Clark | 586 c772 (Link to this contribution)

I do understand both points that my hon. Friend makes. The question of a trigger is something tha...

David Winnick | 586 c772 (Link to this contribution)

Wrongdoing is always to be condemned. Is it not the case that MPs such as Sydney Silverman, who u...

Greg Clark | 586 c772 (Link to this contribution)

The drafting of the Bill reflects that undesirable risk that matters of conscience could result i...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c773 (Link to this contribution)

Several of us have serious worries about undermining not just the sovereignty of Parliament, but ...

Greg Clark | 586 c773 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Many hon. Members will be familiar with what Edmund Burke sai...

Frank Roy | 586 c773 (Link to this contribution)

I support the Bill, but I am sure that the Minister realises that it has serious flaws. For examp...

Greg Clark | 586 c773 (Link to this contribution)

Clearly, like most legislation, the Bill will not apply retrospectively, but if the Standards Com...

Richard Drax | 586 c773 (Link to this contribution)

I have been here long enough to know that Bills are all too often a huge sledgehammer to crack a ...

Greg Clark | 586 c774 (Link to this contribution)

I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will concede that we are proceeding with caut...

Charles Walker | 586 c774 (Link to this contribution)

I would take the Government’s position more seriously if, at the start of this Parliament in 2010...

Greg Clark | 586 c774 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend takes us on to an area that could detain us for the rest of the day. He and I woul...

Jacob Rees-Mogg | 586 c774 (Link to this contribution)

I broadly support the Bill, but with regard to that point, is it strictly necessary? It is open t...

Greg Clark | 586 c774 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend, who is learned and reflective on these matters, is right that the power to expel ...

Jonathan Edwards | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

What discussions has the Minister had with the devolved Governments about using the Bill to empow...

Greg Clark | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

I think I have made it clear that the Bill is not the last word on recall. It will apply specific...

Lady Hermon | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister will be well aware that five Sinn Fein Members do not take their seats in the House....

Greg Clark | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes an important point in the context of Northern Ireland. My understanding is th...

David Davis | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

I favour a recall Bill and understand that my right hon. Friend has found it difficult to get an ...

Greg Clark | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend clearly exposes one of the aspects of our debate. The decision would be in t...

Lord Field of Birkenhead | 586 c775 (Link to this contribution)

It really comes back to the point—many Members have made it—about the threshold needing to be hig...

Greg Clark | 586 cc775-6 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. None of us would be here today had we not had ...

Frank Dobson | 586 c776 (Link to this contribution)

With the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Greg Clark | 586 c776 (Link to this contribution)

I will make some progress before giving way again.

Comparisons with the second trigger prov...

Duncan Hames | 586 c776 (Link to this contribution)

Surely the Minister realises that the reliance on the Standards Committee goes to the root of pub...

Greg Clark | 586 c776 (Link to this contribution)

That is exactly why the Committee is reflecting upon its current arrangements and considering whe...

Stephen Mosley | 586 c777 (Link to this contribution)

I agree entirely with the two triggers that my right hon. Friend has outlined, but surely there i...

Greg Clark | 586 c777 (Link to this contribution)

As I have made clear, there are many views about the level of the recall and what the mechanism s...

Lord Lansley | 586 c777 (Link to this contribution)

Although the decision to suspend a Member is one for this House, the effective trigger for that p...

Greg Clark | 586 c777 (Link to this contribution)

That is exactly what I was alluding to when I said that the Standards Committee is considering wa...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c777 (Link to this contribution)

Returning to the point made by our hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mog...

Greg Clark | 586 c778 (Link to this contribution)

I was not aware of that and so am intrigued by what my hon. Friend says. I see that the Governmen...

Greg Clark | 586 c778 (Link to this contribution)

I will make some progress, because many Members wish to speak.

I will turn briefly to the c...

Stephen Twigg | 586 cc778-9 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the tone and tenor of the Minister’s opening speech and in particular the commitment th...

Richard Drax | 586 c779 (Link to this contribution)

I am tired of this general slagging-off of people who work so hard for their constituencies. Like...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c779 (Link to this contribution)

I partly agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is about how all of us do the job and about the cultur...

Mark Field | 586 c779 (Link to this contribution)

I do not disagree with much of what the hon. Gentleman has said about the level of distrust, but ...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c779 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. Later I shall refer to a distinction that others...

Debbie Abrahams | 586 c780 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument about the disgust that many of our constituents stil...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c780 (Link to this contribution)

I will come to those issues in a moment. The straightforward answer is no, I do not think those m...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c780 (Link to this contribution)

Can the hon. Gentleman envisage a situation where the political pressure would be on the Standard...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c780 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. I will address the role of the Standards Committee in...

Greg Clark | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

To correct the shadow Minister and for the information of the House, I point out that there are i...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is including Members who resigned from the House before the Standards Committee’s pr...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is providing a strong critique of the Government’s Bill and I agree with much ...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman. I will refer shortly to some of the proposals that he has made. I am ...

Chris Bryant | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

While we are correcting the record, the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), who is no long...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for putting that on the record.

The example of the “cash for questio...

David Heath | 586 c781 (Link to this contribution)

The stories mentioned by the hon. Members for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and for Peterborough (Mr Jac...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c782 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree. That is why the principle of recall is so important and why this Bill is welc...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 c782 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman believes, as I do, that the Bill needs to be strengthened an...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c782 (Link to this contribution)

Clearly, we will have amendments to that effect before the House meets next Monday, and it is rig...

Baroness Hoey | 586 c782 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend think that there is any room in this Bill to deal with the situation where Me...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c782 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is tempting me into an area that I do not think I will be tempted into. I am sure ...

Lady Hermon | 586 c782 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to tempt him in a related but different direc...

Stephen Twigg | 586 cc782-3 (Link to this contribution)

Yes indeed. It is very important that this legislation applies to all elected Members of Parliame...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c783 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman’s point about Terry Fields proves exactly why it is so hard to define what is ...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c783 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point of substance that we need to consider as the Bill pro...

Wayne David | 586 c783 (Link to this contribution)

A moment ago my hon. Friend referred to the need for lay members to be involved in the process of...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c783 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; I am glad that he has made that point. That will be a crucial...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c783 (Link to this contribution)

There has been some discussion about the need to ensure that we have more lay members involved in...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c783 (Link to this contribution)

I know that the hon. Gentleman has campaigned on this issue for a very long time and has a consis...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c784 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman said that Terry Fields would probably have been re-elected with a massive majo...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c784 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about the risk of a relatively small minority of—...

Charles Walker | 586 c784 (Link to this contribution)

I have great admiration for members of the public—after all, they are my electorate—but could the...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c784 (Link to this contribution)

I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman is asking that question. Did I use that phrase?

Charles Walker | 586 c784 (Link to this contribution)

The shadow Minister agreed with the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) that we should invol...

Stephen Twigg | 586 cc784-5 (Link to this contribution)

They are those who are representative of the full range of the public. Often people who are appoi...

Lord Beamish | 586 c785 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a very good point. We need look no further than the United States, where...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c785 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, which reinforces a concern felt by many—not just in this H...

Richard Drax | 586 c785 (Link to this contribution)

May I add to the excellent point the shadow Minister has just made that if there were three or fo...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c785 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman and will return to that point in a moment.

The constant pre...

David Davis | 586 c785 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for referring to our committee, but I think he underestimates the wisd...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c786 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman has anticipated the next and, Members will be relieved to hear, final pa...

David Winnick | 586 c786 (Link to this contribution)

Is there not a danger in all this of intimidating Members of Parliament against taking up unpopul...

Stephen Twigg | 586 c786 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes that case strongly, as have others, both in this place and elsewhere. That i...

Jonathan Edwards | 586 c786 (Link to this contribution)

Will the shadow Minister give an indication of the Labour party’s thinking? If the House of Commo...

Stephen Twigg | 586 cc786-7 (Link to this contribution)

That is a matter that should be decided by those devolved bodies. I understand that there have be...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 cc787-8 (Link to this contribution)

Of all the promises made in the heat of the expenses scandal, recall was the only one that resona...

Baroness Hoey | 586 c788 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman knows that I support his amendments. He mentions hon. Members not attending Pa...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c788 (Link to this contribution)

The very basis of the version of recall that I and, I am pleased to say, a great many colleagues ...

Conor Burns | 586 c788 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making very powerful arguments that he has held dear for a long time. May I sug...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c788 (Link to this contribution)

I could not agree more. That is precisely why I believe that we need a proper recall system—not s...

Lord Beamish | 586 c788 (Link to this contribution)

I am very interested in what the hon. Gentleman says about recall empowering voters. In practice,...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

I will explain why such concerns are groundless during my speech, but I will make one point, part...

Lord Beamish | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but that is not the point. Expenditure limits can be put on the recall election, but ...

Lord Beamish | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

This is not about trusting the voters, but about putting influence in the hands of a small group ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman takes a very dim view of his electorate if he thinks that that is so easy. Irr...

Lord Beamish | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

What happens in practice in the United States is that individuals who take against a policy or a ...

Lord Beamish | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

I do trust the electorate. The hon. Gentleman should stop chuntering from a sedentary position. T...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

To my knowledge, in the United States there are no limits on expenditure and on broadcasters; in ...

Baroness Bray of Coln | 586 c789 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend not agree that recall is not about licensing vexatious attempts to unseat MPs...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c790 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is exactly right—I hope in due course to make such points as well as she has—inclu...

Heather Wheeler | 586 c790 (Link to this contribution)

When I sat on the Standards and Privileges Committee, it was interesting to see the sort of compl...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c790 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention, and I will address her points properly, but if she f...

John Redwood | 586 c790 (Link to this contribution)

I think that my hon. Friend’s proposals include not having a recall opportunity within six months...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c790 (Link to this contribution)

That would open up a whole new debate, but that is for another time. In the Bill put together by ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 cc790-1 (Link to this contribution)

I will make some progress and then take as many interventions as there is an appetite for.

...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c791 (Link to this contribution)

It is correct, so hopefully the hon. Member for Bolsover will not be appalled that I have used th...

Charles Walker | 586 c791 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend mentioned pressure groups from the left and the right of politics. I have not had ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c791 (Link to this contribution)

That is interesting. I have been bombarded. I even received a letter this morning that said, “Dea...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 cc791-2 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman made me think of some of the lines in the Bill when he mentioned the hon. Memb...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c792 (Link to this contribution)

That is a good point that I had not picked up on. The hon. Gentleman made the valid and reasonabl...

Richard Drax | 586 c792 (Link to this contribution)

At the point when the 5% figure was reached, the MP’s reputation would be damaged because the loc...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 cc792-3 (Link to this contribution)

The purpose of the 5% figure is to take the temperature and to demonstrate to the returning offic...

Frank Dobson | 586 c793 (Link to this contribution)

Is the last paragraph of the hon. Gentleman’s speech in favour of recall or against it?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c793 (Link to this contribution)

I am very sorry, but will the right hon. Gentleman repeat his question?

Frank Dobson | 586 c793 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman appears to be saying that even if we accepted his extreme version of recall, i...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c793 (Link to this contribution)

That is not at all what I am saying. I do not want to trivialise the concern of Members across th...

Charles Walker | 586 c793 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend and I have had many civilised conversations about this matter over recent weeks. M...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c793 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I think that 5% is about the right level, and that was the con...

Andrew Bridgen | 586 c794 (Link to this contribution)

I have great sympathy with many of my hon. Friend’s arguments about recall, but were his plans to...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c794 (Link to this contribution)

The regulations we are using for those who sign the recall petition are exactly the same as those...

Lord Lansley | 586 c794 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand it, my hon. Friend’s alternative approach would enable a recall petition to be tr...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 cc794-5 (Link to this contribution)

One supporter of the amendments that will be tabled is my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valle...

Bob Stewart | 586 c795 (Link to this contribution)

In support of what my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) said, I ...

Baroness Primarolo | 586 c795 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Mr Goldsmith, you have been speaking for 27 minutes and have been very generous with inter...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 cc795-6 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you for that helpful reminder, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will wrap up my speech quickly, but ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c796 (Link to this contribution)

In one moment, if my hon. Friend does not mind.

In dozens of democracies around the world t...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 cc796-7 (Link to this contribution)

There are no examples of that. There are examples of attempted recall on the back of gun control,...

Chris Bryant | 586 c797 (Link to this contribution)

It is a delight to follow the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). I just want to pick ...

Mark Field | 586 c797 (Link to this contribution)

There was a general election in May 1979. It may have escaped the hon. Gentleman’s attention, but...

Chris Bryant | 586 cc797-8 (Link to this contribution)

If it had not been for the vote of no confidence and the nationalists joining with the Conservati...

Conor Burns | 586 c798 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman mentions Edmund Burke. In Burke’s famous address to his electors in Bristol he...

Chris Bryant | 586 c798 (Link to this contribution)

I will come on to whether there should be a recall in a situation in which MPs disagree with thei...

Richard Drax | 586 c798 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s arguments and his use of statistics. I would just like to ...

Chris Bryant | 586 cc799-800 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman must have hacked into my computer, because he has basically said what I am abo...

Lady Hermon | 586 c801 (Link to this contribution)

I must take the hon. Gentleman back a few minutes in his speech. I am sure I am not alone in feel...

Chris Bryant | 586 c801 (Link to this contribution)

I am very fond of the hon. Lady, but I think she has deliberately misunderstood what I was saying...

David Davis | 586 c801 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Chris Bryant | 586 cc801-2 (Link to this contribution)

I will once I have finished my point.

One Mail journalist told me they were taking bets in ...

Chris Bryant | 586 c802 (Link to this contribution)

This is my last sentence, and I am sure that people have heard quite enough from me—

Chris Bryant | 586 c802 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, I did promise to give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

David Davis | 586 c802 (Link to this contribution)

At the risk of repeating the hon. Gentleman’s point, I remember that we discussed that issue at t...

Chris Bryant | 586 c802 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The proof of that is that after those events, in th...

Chris Bryant | 586 c802 (Link to this contribution)

I am not going to give way to the hon. Gentleman, because I have finished.

2.51 pm

Charles Walker | 586 cc802-3 (Link to this contribution)

I put in to speak in this debate with righteous indignation because I thought I was going to be e...

Conor Burns | 586 c803 (Link to this contribution)

I share my hon. Friend’s reverence and respect for the institution of Parliament, and I very much...

Charles Walker | 586 cc803-4 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. Institutions are only as powerful as the trust that pe...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c804 (Link to this contribution)

I feel so strongly about recall that I recalled myself. All three established parties pretended t...

Mike Thornton | 586 c804 (Link to this contribution)

If there was a way to put more power back in the hands of the electorate to decide whether an MP ...

Douglas Carswell | 586 cc804-5 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly would. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is going to table ...

Richard Drax | 586 c805 (Link to this contribution)

I do not want to get personal about other Members of Parliament, as I do not think it appropriate...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c805 (Link to this contribution)

The point I was illustrating is that MPs often look at recall, but recoil from it because they fe...

Lord Bellingham | 586 c805 (Link to this contribution)

I have been following the hon. Gentleman’s arguments over a long time. In many ways, he talks a g...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c806 (Link to this contribution)

I am a little surprised that my hon. Friend should recoil from the idea that voters might vote ag...

Nigel Evans | 586 c806 (Link to this contribution)

Speaking as someone who recently faced a jury, may I say how grateful I was for their independenc...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c806 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for that powerful point. If I thought that this measure would allow lynch mob justi...

Mike Thornton | 586 c806 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his forbearance. He makes a good point about jurors, but before so...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c806 (Link to this contribution)

That strengthens my point considerably. Until the 1930s, this country had grand juries to determi...

Mark Durkan | 586 c807 (Link to this contribution)

Further to the hon. Gentleman’s point about grand juries, does he accept that the last group of p...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c807 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree. There are many good and decent Members who would never be given as fair a hea...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c807 (Link to this contribution)

It is worth pointing out the Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee has already said ...

Douglas Carswell | 586 cc807-8 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. I would ask people again to apply the Ian Gibson test. If the Standards and Privilege...

Charles Walker | 586 c808 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman said that recall would end safe seat syndrome. How will it do that?

Douglas Carswell | 586 c808 (Link to this contribution)

At present, the career trajectories of MPs in safe seats are determined by how obsequious they ar...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c808 (Link to this contribution)

Is not the ultimate battering ram against “safe seat syndrome”, as it has been described this aft...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c808 (Link to this contribution)

I would rather not get into the subject of electoral reform, although my views on it were not gen...

Mark Field | 586 c808 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the hon. Gentleman is being rather unkind about “safe seat syndrome”, which has been...

Douglas Carswell | 586 cc808-9 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has made my point for me, rather eloquently. There are very good and decent people...

David Davis | 586 cc809-810 (Link to this contribution)

I think that 10 years ago I would have opposed the Bill, because I would have taken the conventio...

Richard Drax | 586 c810 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening carefully to my right hon. Friend. If, as a result of such a referendum, a politic...

David Davis | 586 c810 (Link to this contribution)

This point has been made a number of times, particularly by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Br...

Mike Thornton | 586 c811 (Link to this contribution)

Much of what the right hon. Gentleman says about our constituents is true. However, he is perhaps...

David Davis | 586 c811 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman misses the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park made. This w...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c811 (Link to this contribution)

Mention has been made today of the disengagement with politics in the wider context, but it might...

Charles Walker | 586 c811 (Link to this contribution)

Am I right in thinking that the even the Conservative party is having a renaissance in Scotland?<...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 cc811-3 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman might be on to something, but I think that it might have to be called a relati...

Lord Beamish | 586 c813 (Link to this contribution)

I have some sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman says, but that would not stop a wealthy individ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c813 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman might be correct in some of that, but we do live in an imperfect world. All I ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c813 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making a brilliant speech, and I agree with I think everything he has just ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 cc813-4 (Link to this contribution)

I think there is a debate going on around me here about the influence of money in politics, and h...

Thomas Docherty | 586 c814 (Link to this contribution)

I hope that the Minister will intervene on this matter. My understanding is that detention is not...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c814 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that, and there should be absolutely no ambiguity here. T...

Mark Field | 586 cc814-5 (Link to this contribution)

Although I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) that there has been to...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c815 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman have any confidence in his party leadership’s record on political reform?...

Mark Field | 586 cc815-7 (Link to this contribution)

That is a rather unfair question. It was the hon. Gentleman’s party leadership until a few weeks ...

Frank Dobson | 586 c817 (Link to this contribution)

It is customary to begin a speech by declaring an interest, but in this case I can declare a disi...

Douglas Carswell | 586 c817 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is arguing against allowing people to decide who their representatives are o...

Frank Dobson | 586 cc817-8 (Link to this contribution)

That is what I believe in. I do not believe that introducing a recall system will further that de...

Frank Dobson | 586 c818 (Link to this contribution)

It is no good people who do not agree with me shaking their heads, because I am sure that is the ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c818 (Link to this contribution)

The example that the hon. Gentleman gives is an argument for recall. The Member of Parliament he ...

Frank Dobson | 586 c818 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, but she would have been put to all the bother and expense of fighting for her seat in the mi...

Frank Dobson | 586 cc818-820 (Link to this contribution)

I know that is the idea, and that is what is wrong with it. That is why it is a stupid idea.

<...
Richard Drax | 586 cc820-1 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson)...

Edward Leigh | 586 c821 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If a Member is caught indulging in corrupt actions, I have no...

Richard Drax | 586 c821 (Link to this contribution)

I concur entirely with my hon. Friend. As always, his words are wise and should be listened to by...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c821 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has used the word “democracy” a few times. As I am sure he and everybody else ...

Richard Drax | 586 c821 (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Gentleman will hold on for a few moments, I will hopefully answer his question.

Daniel Kawczynski | 586 c821 (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend turn his attention to Members of Parliament who are voted for by the electora...

Richard Drax | 586 cc821-2 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know whether my hon. Friend was here earlier, but I talked about honour, which is sadly ...

Andrew Percy | 586 c822 (Link to this contribution)

I am a little confused. My hon. Friend keeps saying that there is a big chasm between us and the ...

Richard Drax | 586 c822 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention but—dare I say it—I think it is a little simplistic ...

Charles Walker | 586 c823 (Link to this contribution)

We in this place all search for a silver bullet and an easy solution to our problems. In 2009 it ...

Richard Drax | 586 cc823-4 (Link to this contribution)

I agree entirely. What will restore faith in this place is us—the parties and individuals that ma...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c824 (Link to this contribution)

If we think back to the expenses scandal, is the hon. Gentleman saying that nothing dishonourable...

Richard Drax | 586 c824 (Link to this contribution)

I am not quite sure I got that, because I am so staggered by the question. Perhaps the hon. Gentl...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c824 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that during the expenses scandal nothing dishonourable happened—he h...

Richard Drax | 586 c824 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure I have ever said that. In fact, I have said the opposite. If people have behaved—le...

Richard Drax | 586 c824 (Link to this contribution)

Ah. That is another question. I am not going to look back with hindsight. I was not even here. We...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c824 (Link to this contribution)

It is as well to remember that the expenses scandal in the 2005-10 Parliament was the result not ...

Richard Drax | 586 cc824-5 (Link to this contribution)

I take my hon. Friend’s point entirely; he is absolutely right.

I was not here, but I have ...

Mark Durkan | 586 c825 (Link to this contribution)

I struggle to find any part of the remarks of the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) wit...

Graham Stuart | 586 c825 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. Does he not think that what lies behind ...

Mark Durkan | 586 c826 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. I fully take the point. I believe that the bottom line, as regards the democratic pri...

Edward Leigh | 586 c826 (Link to this contribution)

Everyone agrees with the hon. Gentleman about such bad behaviour, but does he agree with us on th...

Mark Durkan | 586 c826 (Link to this contribution)

I certainly believe that hon. Members should be clearly protected when expressing their views pro...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c826 (Link to this contribution)

I am afraid that kind words butter no parsnips. If the hon. Gentleman supports the amendments pro...

Mark Durkan | 586 c826 (Link to this contribution)

I am almost being prompted to speak specifically to some of the amendments. The hon. Member for G...

Steve McCabe | 586 c827 (Link to this contribution)

I do not know whether my hon. Friend plans to serve on the Bill Committee, but given his knowledg...

Mark Durkan | 586 c827 (Link to this contribution)

I fully accept what my hon. Friend says, which is why I have said that just as some of the clause...

Mark Durkan | 586 c827 (Link to this contribution)

Before I take another intervention, I want to go back to an issue raised by the hon. Member for L...

Daniel Kawczynski | 586 c827 (Link to this contribution)

Before the hon. Gentleman was interrupted, he spoke momentarily about what happens when a Member ...

Mark Durkan | 586 c828 (Link to this contribution)

If people want to recall on that basis, yes, they should be able to do so, which is why I am supp...

Charles Walker | 586 c828 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with my hon. Friend—I refer to him in that way because I like him very much—on most thing...

Mark Durkan | 586 c828 (Link to this contribution)

I take the spirit of the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I do not accept it literally. If we are to t...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c828 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making a very good point about the 10%, but will it not be dealt with by on...

Mark Durkan | 586 c829 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. Those of us who were members of the pick-up ban...

Sammy Wilson | 586 c829 (Link to this contribution)

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, notwithstanding the safeguards that he has described, in Northe...

Mark Durkan | 586 cc829-830 (Link to this contribution)

People can organise petitions, and perhaps they can achieve the 5% and perhaps they can then achi...

Lady Hermon | 586 c830 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman address a very particular situation in Northern Ireland, namely the anony...

Mark Durkan | 586 c830 (Link to this contribution)

I entirely take the hon. Lady’s point. People do indeed vote for candidates who present themselve...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc830-1 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this interesting debate, and I am pleased to f...

Graham Stuart | 586 c831 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend makes the point that those in favour of these amendments believe, as I think...

Lord Lansley | 586 c831 (Link to this contribution)

I agree. I have been listening carefully to the debate, and it is interesting to consider under w...

Guy Opperman | 586 c832 (Link to this contribution)

I prosecuted nine murder trials and all manner of other things in my previous career, so I can en...

Lord Lansley | 586 c832 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has such expertise, for endorsing that point.

It goes ...

David Burrowes | 586 c832 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend places a lot of emphasis on the issue of due process, but due process is not...

Lord Lansley | 586 c833 (Link to this contribution)

I understand my hon. Friend’s point. I am afraid that there are too many risks to be confident th...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c833 (Link to this contribution)

Is my right hon. Friend not drawing the distinction between the Government’ proposals, which, alt...

Lord Lansley | 586 c833 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend leads me on to the most important aspect of this, which is that what is being soug...

Edward Leigh | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with everything that the former Leader of the House is saying, and I want to ask him a ge...

Lord Lansley | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to think about that, and I am sure that our Front-Bench colleagues will also be willin...

Lord Lansley | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

When I was Leader of the House, I always enjoyed hearing the often highly educated views of the s...

Thomas Docherty | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman says that he was involved in the Bill’s drafting and that it is good to ...

Lord Lansley | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

The coalition agreement did say that, but draft legislation was published in 2011, which was reas...

Lord Lansley | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

I was involved not least because of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’s comments ...

Charles Walker | 586 c834 (Link to this contribution)

As important as recall is, what was much more important in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 was fi...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc834-5 (Link to this contribution)

I do not suppose that I am overestimating the Bill’s importance, although it was important that w...

Lord Lansley | 586 c835 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way first to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who is being very...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c835 (Link to this contribution)

I am trying to understand exactly what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. Is he saying, for exam...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc835-6 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting question, and not a hypothetical one—let us face it: he ...

Graham Stuart | 586 c836 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for honouring his pledge to give way to me. I think that he...

Lord Lansley | 586 c836 (Link to this contribution)

This is very difficult, because we are necessarily debating what the circumstances would be, but ...

John Howell | 586 c836 (Link to this contribution)

Surely the evidence my right hon. Friend is looking for is in the bit of the Bill that is covered...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc836-7 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend will recall that I am not enamoured of 38 Degrees, but it is interesting to make t...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 586 c837 (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman has used the phrase “representative democracy” on a number of occasions....

Lord Lansley | 586 c837 (Link to this contribution)

It is not that Members have something to fear from participation in our democracy—far from it. I ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c837 (Link to this contribution)

My right hon. Friend is describing Parliament as if it were made up of hundreds of free spirits w...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc837-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am quite old fashioned: Members would have to look quite far back to find a point at which I di...

Jim Cunningham | 586 c838 (Link to this contribution)

This is also a constitutional issue. We make judgments on behalf of our constituents on issues th...

Lord Lansley | 586 cc839-840 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We are not delegates or ciphers; we are representatives. ...

Mike Thornton | 586 cc840-1 (Link to this contribution)

I have been called earlier than expected, because there seems to be a lack of Opposition Members ...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 cc841-2 (Link to this contribution)

The Bill is fundamental to us being a democracy, and I am proud that the Government have introduc...

Sammy Wilson | 586 c842 (Link to this contribution)

The very fact that the hon. Lady has outlined so many safeguards is an indication that she knows ...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 cc842-3 (Link to this contribution)

I would love to think that we lived in a world where we were all saints and there were no sinners...

Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 586 c843 (Link to this contribution)

If we want to deal with an abuse of democracy and win trust back, does the hon. Lady realise that...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 c843 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman has the advantage of me. That is something close to his heart and he understan...

Tessa Munt | 586 c843 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder whether one might suggest that the lack of a job description is one of the things that c...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 c843 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes a very interesting point, but it is not quite as simple as giving us a job de...

Tessa Munt | 586 c843 (Link to this contribution)

I am not suggesting there should be a job description, but in a representative democracy, people ...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 cc843-4 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes another good point about the challenge, which the Government have faced, of t...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c844 (Link to this contribution)

On the distinction between a legitimate issue of criminal misbehaviour and sincere, well-meaning ...

Anne Marie Morris | 586 c844 (Link to this contribution)

We can speculate about what might have happened, but it is not as simple as whether something is ...

Martin Vickers | 586 cc844-5 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome the fact that the Government have introduced the Bill and I congratulate them. It has b...

Chris Bryant | 586 c845 (Link to this contribution)

Members have campaigned on issues such as abortion or ending the criminalisation of homosexuality...

Martin Vickers | 586 c846 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot disagree; private Members’ Bills have indeed played a very important role over the years...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 cc846-7 (Link to this contribution)

I want to make a brief intervention in this debate, because so far no one who has sat on the Stan...

Bill Wiggin | 586 c847 (Link to this contribution)

As a former Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee and a former Chief Whip, my right ...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 cc847-8 (Link to this contribution)

The debates about Standards and Privileges Committee reports that take place on the Floor of the ...

David Ward | 586 c848 (Link to this contribution)

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that we are in danger of becoming obsessed with the process le...

Lord Young of Cookham | 586 c848 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the process should be linked, if not to a conviction, to serious misconduct. As my h...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 cc848-850 (Link to this contribution)

Let me declare an interest at the outset, as an adjunct associate professor of British politics a...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c850 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, not that young in some cases.

I also take issue with the comments of the hon. Member f...

David Burrowes | 586 c850 (Link to this contribution)

I recognise my hon. Friend’s wisdom and understanding of political history, but, on history, may ...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c850 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is such a decent and generous gentleman that he did give me notice yesterday that ...

Graham Stuart | 586 c851 (Link to this contribution)

I suppose the worst case scenario with the Government’s Bill is when somebody does something that...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c851 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, but I come back to a central issue that was touched on by...

Nick de Bois | 586 c851 (Link to this contribution)

Is my hon. Friend not highlighting the case for the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for R...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c851 (Link to this contribution)

Again, I have enormous respect for my hon. Friend, but my big concern about the amendments is mis...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c851 (Link to this contribution)

I think that everyone here who believes in the recall of MPs would like to see a system that is n...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c852 (Link to this contribution)

I understand. Let me put it on the record that my hon. Friend is a decent, diligent and caring Me...

Mark Durkan | 586 c852 (Link to this contribution)

I worked for John Hume as his Westminster assistant for many years, and the truth is that he woul...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c852 (Link to this contribution)

I defer to the hon. Gentleman’s knowledge. Of course John Hume was greatly liked and respected in...

Conor Burns | 586 cc852-4 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to be participating in the latter stages of this important debate and to follow ...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c854 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; he is making a powerful speech. On his point about gay mar...

Conor Burns | 586 c855 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very good question. Some hon. Ladies and Gentlemen in this Chamber have known me for mo...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c855 (Link to this contribution)

I would be interested to know why my hon. Friend thinks that others might do that as a consequenc...

Conor Burns | 586 c855 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has given me an excellent introduction to how I want to end my speech. I will supp...

Graham Stuart | 586 cc855-6 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow so many powerful speeches, none more so than that just given by my hon...

Sammy Wilson | 586 c856 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that all the conditions that have been attached to the recall mech...

Graham Stuart | 586 c856 (Link to this contribution)

That is a fair point. However, the public are not one thing, are they? The public are made up of ...

Mark Durkan | 586 c856 (Link to this contribution)

The thresholds that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) talks about would be in the ha...

Graham Stuart | 586 cc856-7 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right. That is why, although I will reflect on what I have heard today—I am...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c857 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a strong speech. I think that the answer to his reasonable question as t...

Graham Stuart | 586 c857 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend made a powerful speech. At the heart of the issue is whether the public, with no p...

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park | 586 c857 (Link to this contribution)

None of the Lib Dem Members with whom I have spoken believe they would have been recalled on the ...

Graham Stuart | 586 cc857-8 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a subtle and important point, which takes me back to the observati...

Diane Abbott | 586 c858 (Link to this contribution)

I support the Bill. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that this is not about whether we trust the pu...

Graham Stuart | 586 c858 (Link to this contribution)

I take that point on board. For the entire period during which I have been involved with the Cons...

Lord Beamish | 586 c858 (Link to this contribution)

That may possibly be the case. However, if a very well-financed individual or organisation campai...

Graham Stuart | 586 c859 (Link to this contribution)

The argument against the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park is that powerf...

Jeremy Corbyn | 586 c859 (Link to this contribution)

I support the principles behind the Bill. The hon. Gentleman must be aware that over the years th...

Graham Stuart | 586 c859 (Link to this contribution)

Ultimately, however, it would not be the press barons but our electorates who decided. If the hon...

Chris Bryant | 586 c859 (Link to this contribution)

Is not the truth that the people we are talking about—Leo Abse, Sydney Silverman, David Steel and...

Graham Stuart | 586 cc859-860 (Link to this contribution)

I tend to agree. There is an idea that powerful outside forces will pick on a Member of Parliamen...

Thomas Docherty | 586 cc860-2 (Link to this contribution)

On behalf of the Opposition, I will respond to the debate and place on the record our position on...

Tom Brake | 586 cc862-4 (Link to this contribution)

We have had an impassioned debate and I am very grateful to all hon. Members for their contributi...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 586 c864 (Link to this contribution)

Last weekend, in response to the hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell), the Prime Minister a...

Tom Brake | 586 cc864-5 (Link to this contribution)

Both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have indicated that the Bill could be impro...

Mark Field | 586 c865 (Link to this contribution)

I can confirm that I will not be joining the Liberal Democrats.

Tom Brake | 586 c865 (Link to this contribution)

I was not suggesting that was what the hon. Gentleman had in mind; I was thinking he might set up...

John Redwood | 586 c865 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Brake | 586 c865 (Link to this contribution)

I need to make some progress.

The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobso...

John Redwood | 586 c865 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Brake | 586 cc865-6 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but I am not going to give way. I want to pick up on a couple of points that were mad...

John Redwood | 586 c866 (Link to this contribution)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Brake | 586 c866 (Link to this contribution)

I will not give way, as I still want to respond to a couple of speeches.

I understand why t...

John Bercow | 586 c867 (Link to this contribution)

Order. Before I come to the programme motion and ask a Minister or Whip to move it, I should tell...

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