Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). He ...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I would be delighted.

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady; it is nice to be greeted so warmly when making an interventi...

The hon. Lady provides a perfect illustration of the point that I was making. Parts of the Bill a...

The point has been raised about the possible effect of the provisions on the Scottish referendum....

The hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point. There has been a carefully considered process in Scot...

I have been listening carefully to all the arguments, particularly those of the hon. Lady, but I ...

The key point I am trying to make is that those organisations are already regulated, and we do no...

To assist the hon. Lady—although she is making such a distinguished speech that she does not need...

They are wrong!

They may all be wrong, as the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) says from a sed...

I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee for his helpful intervention. Speaking as someone wh...

rose—

I am anxious to make progress and conscious of the time constraints for this debate and the need ...

I have been encouraged to speak to this part of the Bill. [Interruption.] I have not been whipped...

Has the hon. Gentleman read the evidence given by the Electoral Commission to the Select Committe...

I did read the Electoral Commission’s evidence, and noted the commission’ conclusion that it woul...

How does the hon. Gentleman expect charities to arrive at the answers to the two questions that h...

The hon. Gentleman will be surprised to learn that I listened closely to his speech on Second Rea...

The hon. Gentleman said that he had been encouraged to speak. Presumably, he was encouraged to do...

When I said that I had been encouraged to speak, I meant that I had been encouraged to speak by t...

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on an excellent and well-balanced speech. He is teaching us tha...

I understand what the Electoral Commission said, and I agree that that view runs through its evid...

Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that we are not talking merely about a knee-jerk reaction fro...

I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, who made an impassioned speech earlier, but for ever...

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. He clearly agrees with me that we need to ensure that...

That was a fantastic intervention. I said on Second Reading that a Committee stage debate on the ...

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. I think we should bear in mind the fact ...

The hon. Gentleman has summed up why we have waited three and a half years for the Bill, and why ...

A new low has been reached in the handling of the Bill. I do not think that we have seen such a s...

My hon. Friend is right to refer to the explanatory notes. One of the reasons why so many volunta...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I am grateful to him for reminding me of paragraph 59, be...

Is the hon. Lady saying these voluntary organisations are campaigning in support of a political p...

Yes, but that is the whole problem. They may not say, “Vote Liberal Democrat”, but if they say, “...

The sentence before the one I previously quoted mentions

“enhancing the standing of a regis...

My hon. Friend is pointing to the very serious practical problems that everybody—both the politic...

The intervention of the Deputy Leader of the House has, not for the first time today, added confu...

That is right.

In the run-up to general elections, voluntary organisations often send e-mai...

If a charity advises their supporters to vote for candidate X rather than candidate Y, that could...

That is a good point; I will concede that point to the hon. Gentleman.

What the hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) says is right, but over the past few days...

My hon. Friend is right. The problems of substance and process in the preparation of this Bill ar...

New clause 10, which stands in my name and those of the hon. Members for Nottingham North (Mr All...

Is that not the real point here: many of those charities and third-party organisations have engag...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, with which I agree wholeheartedly. I do not thin...

And the trade unions.

Indeed.

The fundamental principle at issue today is the right of citizens to express their ...

I rise to support the provisions tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David)...

Does my hon. Friend recognise the irony that although many of these organisations have contribute...

My hon. Friend could well write the episode of the soap opera that I was describing.

As a c...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about this. One thing voluntary groups do is use campaigns to ...

That is absolutely right.

Many concerned voices were heard in last week’s debate and many t...

Last week, 100 MPs were in the Chamber to take part in the “Get Britain Cycling” debate, in which...

I agree totally.

I am sure that some Members will have read the beautiful article by the Ro...

My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument in defence of the right of charities to engage in ci...

Happily, I am not responsible for what people write on “ConservativeHome.”

The Prime Minist...

I just want simple answers to simple questions. I apologise for being absent from the debate, but...

Does my hon. Friend also think that it is important that the people affected by the clause, who w...

That is my third point. If we are seeking to reach consensus, it is critical that all parties in ...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right in what he is saying on consultation. It is important that the...

Yes, that was my fourth point. We have to dig ourselves out of this procedural hole and try to en...

My hon. Friend is making a set of important points about process rather than principle, which is ...

The reason I want some general principles set out is that I, like many others, am completely conf...

I shall speak to amendments 62, 64 and 167 and new clause 9.

I feel that I am speaking in a...

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just the great and the good of the charity sector—groups...

My right hon. Friend made that point extremely well. Many people’s first political engagement may...

Does the hon. Lady share my concern that, according to my reading of the Bill, the reduction in e...

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Of course, it makes it especially difficult when orga...

My hon. Friend is setting out perfectly the complexities arising from the Bill’s provisions. It w...

Indeed, my hon. Friend makes a good point. Fear of legal action, doubt, not knowing and thinking ...

I thank my hon. Friend for allowing me to make this intervention and I apologise for not hearing ...

Indeed. My hon. Friend makes a very good point. The worry is that the opportunity that those orga...

An important point was made in an earlier intervention, to which the Deputy Leader of the House s...

Indeed. The hon. Lady makes a very good point on that issue, as did the right hon. Member for Hal...

I will start by welcoming back my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell...

Did my hon. Friend not hear the Leader of the House say on Second Reading that he had met senior ...

No, I do not, funnily enough. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was in her place, but earlier ...

My hon. Friend has hit on an issue. The explanatory notes make it clear that if a third party enh...

That goes to the heart of the problem in part 2 of the Bill, which has been hastily cobbled toget...

I apologise, Mr Sheridan, for not having been present for the whole debate. Does my hon. Friend a...

I agree with my hon. Friend. One of the reasons I mentioned Hope not Hate is that it is a classic...

I am grateful, Mr Sheridan, to be called to speak in this debate for the first time in three days...

I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the debate. I have just come from the Joint Co...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

We are engaged in a comedy, a Machiavellian game where ...

Order. I know that the hon. Gentleman has waited a long time to speak in this debate, but it woul...

I was speaking to the clause and amendment 47, which is a sensible way of considering the Bill. I...

I have listened carefully to a number of contributions, and genuine concerns have been expressed....

To add to that point, does the hon. Gentleman think that MPs’ websites with links to charities mi...

The hon. Lady makes a constructive intervention, and no doubt the Minister will want to respond. ...

I thank the Chair of the Procedure Committee for his contribution to the debate, and I acknowledg...

I hear what the Minister says, but I think it is acceptable for a mental health charity to advise...

My Committee reported in order to inform debates such as this, and we took evidence on this very ...

I intend to follow the Bill closely. I hope that any charity worth its salt would not direct its ...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will give way for a final time before I conclude my speech.

The hon. Gentleman’s point is precisely right, as hon. Members would expect, but does he share th...

I share many of the concerns expressed in the Chamber this afternoon, which is why I, like all ho...

rose—

Order. Before I call the Minister, the Opposition spokesperson has indicated that he wishes to ma...

It is unusual for the Opposition spokesman to make a second speech in such a debate, but it is im...

I apologise for the fact that I will take some time to respond. We have been debating the matter ...

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his positive comment. If he is giving a commitment to effect...

It will be up to the hon. Gentleman to make his decision. I have given an undertaking, and am abo...

rose—

rose—

I will give way to the Opposition Front Bench spokesman and then the Chair of the Select Committe...

What the right hon. Gentleman say is of course correct. Why, if he believes there should be great...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to underlin...

The Deputy Leader of the House is absolutely right that the Electoral Commission says those words...

I thank the Select Committee Chair for that further clarification of the Electoral Commission’s q...

The Minister talks about careful consideration. Will he produce a human rights memorandum on the ...

On the human rights aspects, some Members have questioned whether the Bill is compliant. The Gove...

Will the Minister confirm that what he and the Government are proposing is that if a charity puts...

On the latter point, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the political parties have sought to g...

So to confirm, the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the Conservative party could spend that mo...

We could continue this rather unfruitful dialogue, or I can restate that, whatever the charity to...

rose—

rose—

rose—

I am going to make a bit more progress. It may help the Committee—

rose—

Order. The Minister is not giving way at this point. Hon. Members must let him continue.

I will give way shortly.

It might help the Committee if I set out in a little detail why th...

It is quite clear from today’s discussions that there is still some confusion among charities and...

When the amendment is made public—we have made a commitment to do that—I am sure that those organ...

rose—

I am going to make some more progress.

The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member f...

Given what the Minister has just said, will he confirm that if a church or a synagogue were to or...

That is the kind of issue that can be taken up with the Charity Commission and the Electoral Comm...

Has the Minister considered the position of the Wildlife Trust in this context? It is not a singl...

Clearly we have. This comes down to the issue of whether the Wildlife Trust, which I suspect has ...

In respect of the amendment I tabled in line with the sentiment of my Select Committee—very much ...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. I shall move on to other amendments, but I wan...

Is it the message of the right hon. Gentleman’s speech that all the organisations and charities t...

Far be it from me to encourage or advise charities. I am sure they will continue to campaign if t...

Will the Minister outline exactly what discussions he has had with the devolved Administrations a...

I am afraid I will have to write to the hon. Lady. She will be able to judge for herself whether ...

The Minister mentioned me, so I appreciate his giving me the opportunity to say that the Bill ame...

I can assure the hon. Lady that, given that this term has been in legislation since 2000, it must...

rose—

I will give way to the Opposition spokesman, but I will not take any more interventions after tha...

I thought that the Minister was in listening mode, but there we are. May I ask him one simple que...

I think that we shall have to wait and see—[Interruption.] As I have said to the hon. Gentleman, ...

Order. There are too many private conversations and sedentary interventions. May we have a bit of...

I suspect that the House is becoming restless, Sir Edward, and that I need to move on very, very ...

rose—

I am not going to give way. I have made that point clear. I do not think the hon. Gentleman under...

This has been a substantial debate both in time and in content, and I am very grateful to all Mem...

I beg to move amendment 101, page 13, line 31, at end insert—

‘( ) In section 94(1) of the ...

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 66, page 13, leave out ...

It is a great pleasure to speak while you are in the Chair, Sir Edward, on the feast of St Pulche...

Having read the hon. Gentleman’s amendment, I wonder whether he is trying to take us back to the ...

Even this Parliament did not exist under the benign reign of the Empress Pulcheria, so I am afrai...

Will the hon. Gentleman let us know what he has against the Church of England, because this bruta...

It would not in any way affect the Church of England and, anyway, should the Anglican Church inte...

I am sorry to disabuse the hon. Gentleman, but if the Church of England or other religious bodies...

The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. We heard during the debate on the previous clause that if a t...

Remarkably and unusually—perhaps uniquely—the hon. Gentleman has not done his homework. This Bill...

Again, I am in disagreement with the hon. Gentleman, who, surprisingly, I often agree with about ...

The hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten that British Telecom, Arriva, Stagecoach, Heathrow, Vi...

The hon. Lady is ignoring the detail of the Bill and carrying on with the absurd scaremongering t...

The hon. Gentleman famously campaigned with a notable third party—his nanny—in the Glenrothes by-...

That is a gloriously roundabout way of examining this issue and it gives me an opportunity to pay...

Order. We will go back to the amendment, thank you.

Thank you, Sir Edward.

In response to the point made by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland...

On Second Reading, the hon. Gentleman said:

“A lot of campaigning organisations, including ...

I am more than happy to say that this is the tip of the iceberg and that as the Titanic steams to...

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is relatively new to the House. Let me point out to him that...

As an established candidate before I was elected in the last election, I did not receive any help...

I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is talking out of his hat. The fact is that a lot of large pri...

The hon. Lady is wrong to say that I am talking out of my hat because if I did, Sir Edward, I wou...

The hon. Gentleman is wrong. There is public support for candidates in this country. We have a mi...

The hon. Lady is right that there is a free post, but parties are not publicly funded. They recei...

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Is there a larger purpose here? Public funds—taxpayer...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

What about the British Legion?

The British Legion will not become a third party in a general election because it is against char...

My hon. Friend makes a powerful and interesting speech, and perhaps he can help hon. Members who,...

The Government and the taxpayer hand out very large amounts of money to third parties. Therefore,...

The hon. Gentleman reveals to the Committee that he does not understand how voluntary sector fina...

The hon. Lady is not entirely accurate. If she were to trouble herself to look at the NCVO accoun...

Does the hon. Gentleman believe that charities in receipt of public money should be able to campa...

Charities should be able to campaign for their fundamental beliefs, but lobbying the Government w...

Will my hon. Friend confirm that, under amendment 27, companies such as Atos, which does consider...

I would be shocked if Atos wanted to campaign. The idea that it should become a third party and c...

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that, if he attends and is photographed at a garden party hosted ...

The hon. Gentleman has a wonderfully vivid imagination and conjures up increasingly absurd scenar...

The hon. Gentleman would have been caught by his amendment. Is it not the case that he took great...

The hon. Gentleman assumes I have a much more salubrious social life than I have. I wish I consta...

My hon. Friend is being generous in giving way, but he did not really answer the question of what...

If my hon. Friend had been listening to all of the debate outside the House, which I am sure she ...

Order. The hon. Gentleman is starting to go around in circles, albeit in an elegant way, so he mi...

If I had not taken so many interventions I would have finished. The key point is immeasurably sim...

May I start my comments on clause 27 by declaring a non-financial interest in organisations in th...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the provisions in the Bill do not even attempt to tackle the very ...

My hon. Friend makes an important point that I will come to in due course.

This Bill puts t...

On the amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg),...

I have noted the hon. Gentleman’s interest in this issue in the past. I point to the answers give...

In an earlier debate, our hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) raised with the Deputy...

Our hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) articulated clearly the feelings of parts of...

I would like to draw the hon. Lady’s attention to a problem with how clause 27 will apply to Nort...

The hon. Lady makes a valid point. The reduced limits for the devolved Administrations relate not...

Does my hon. Friend think that there is even a modicum of reason behind the proposal to reduce th...

I will comment on the reduction to the thresholds presently. Suffice it to say at this moment tha...

Will the hon. Lady give way on that point?

Of course.

The hon. Lady will know that I was expressing my concern that the chief executive of Save the Chi...

I believe that the issue of third sector chief executives’ pay is being used as a smokescreen to ...

There is a legitimate role for third sector organisations in making their case to elected represe...

Order. I think we are starting to stray from the matter before us.

Thank you for your guidance, Sir Edward. All I would say is that many third sector organisations ...

One organisation that has made a great contribution, under the previous Government as well as thi...

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. Indeed, it would be interesting to trawl the websites of ma...

On unintended consequences, has my hon. Friend considered the implications of the Oldham East and...

I thank my hon. Friend. What he said provides further evidence to show how this Bill was not prop...

I am sure my hon. Friend is aware—I hope so—of the paper produced by the House of Commons Library...

I agree with my hon. Friend on that point.

As I was saying, our amendment is designed to re...

Let me, just for a moment, return to our earlier debates, and ask Members in all parts of the Cha...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the outcome of clause 27. Does he agree that the clause ...

I hope that as we proceed—and it should not be forgotten that we are only at the second stage of ...

Has my hon. Friend’s Committee had an opportunity to consider the ramifications of the electoral ...

The simple answer to my hon. Friend’s question is no: the Committee has not had time to look at t...

rose—

One issue on which the Government need to listen very carefully, so that they do not find themsel...

Has my hon. Friend’s Committee given any consideration to the possibility that this is a hybrid B...

Again, no, we have not had the time to do that. My Committee produced a very hurried response, wh...

I agree with the argument being elaborated by the Chair of the Select Committee. The Electoral Co...

I am afraid I must give the third negative reply in a row: we have not discovered that rationale,...

The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) seemed to imply in his recent intervention that a local...

I am sure the Chair will rule me out of order if I return to previous debates, but suffice it to ...

Order. Many Members want to contribute to this debate, and I know that the very experienced Membe...

Thank you, Sir Edward, but I had seen the Government Whip running round trying to roust up a coup...

In the hon. Gentleman’s last sentence he moved off the main point he was referring to, which was ...

Give me the time to undertake accurate pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill and I will give the r...

It is kind of the hon. Gentleman to take an intervention, and I appreciate his patience. He has r...

I would love to use what little persuasive powers I have on the Deputy Leader of the House and th...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I shall give way shortly to another distinguished member of my Select Committee.

The incubu...

I would not like my hon. Friend to give the impression that there was no sense of urgency among m...

Oh no.

It was the Government’s response that was at fault. Significantly, the Electoral Commission was v...

Absolutely. The Electoral Commission comes before us quite a lot and it is pretty hard to get any...

My hon. Friend is making another excellent speech and has clearly done a splendid job. Was he as ...

I do not want to get drawn into too many specific cases, but my right hon. Friend highlights one ...

rose—

Is that the end of the speech?

No; I was giving way to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith).<...

The hon. Gentleman is a very courteous Member. He will want to know that six other Members are tr...

My hon. Friend’s hypothetical example prompts me to point to the supreme irony that the Bill has ...

I am conscious of the justified blandishments of the Chair. I had assumed that I was being requir...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

If the hon. Gentleman, formerly of the Select Committee, will allow me, I must make progress beca...

rose—

Order. For the guidance of the Committee, I would like to get the Minister in by 6.45, so if hon....

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who speaks to the Com...

The hon. Gentleman has just said that there has been a significant increase in public funding to ...

The hon. Gentleman strengthens my argument, because the point I was coming to is this: if an orga...

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that one of the strengths of the voluntary sector in the Unite...

It has been argued that state funding weakens the independence of charities, making them less inc...

When constituents write to the hon. Gentleman on a number of different causes that have been ment...

I was sent spontaneous e-mails on the Bill by a number of constituents. I believe that a number o...

I feel the need to respond. I do not think that I said that third sector charities would be e-mai...

I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification. I think it is important that we represent our const...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. I wonder whether he thinks that it would be a go...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making a case that I have made in the past. Government Front ...

I fear that the hon. Gentleman does not understand the financial reporting that charities have to...

Order. I know that Mr Elphicke will be thinking carefully of other people, so he might like to br...

Thank you, Sir Edward. I will not detain the Committee for too much longer. I wish to make a few ...

Well, they must be very brief.

My particular concern about the state funding of charities and outsourcing of services is that th...

Could the hon. Gentleman give one example?

Does the hon. Gentleman want an example of how a charity would be affected by the Bill?

Could he name one charity that is using public funds to lobby in the way he describes?

I have considerable concerns about Shelter, which provides not shelter but advice and which is of...

Does my hon. Friend agree that, if a charity commissions an opinion poll that uses spurious or sk...

Yes, that would be wrong.

It is illegal already.

The hon. Gentleman shouts that it is illegal, but the problem is that it actually happens, becaus...

I am astonished at the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Charities are restricted to act within their ch...

I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman. He says that charities are restricted from political camp...

I want to speak specifically in support of amendment 66 and more generally about clause 27.