Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

I have—but I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has done so. He might be well advised t...

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that private meetings, private lunches and any contact t...

That is a powerful point, but I do not want to stray too far down that track because you may rule...

As Members of Parliament, we expect to be lobbied by people who are lobbying in their own interes...

I will briefly make several points. First, there is a Government amendment before the Committee t...

On the scope of the clause and the limitations on who is covered by it, Members of Parliament are...

I thank my hon. Friend. My views on MPs’ second jobs are well known. They were debated in the Hou...

The point about identifying who works for whom must be complicated by the fact that some consulta...

Again, my hon. Friend makes an important point. The truth is that we will have no idea whom they ...

Why does the hon. Gentleman think that those dangers would arise as a result of the proposed amen...

Let us look at the clause concerned. Clause 1 currently states:

“A person must not carry on...

Is that not the entire point? There would be no need to specify the person’s employer if they cou...

rose—

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

The hon. and learned Gentleman will have a chance to make a contribution if he catches your eye, ...

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I shall not give way again on this point.

In addition, if only individuals are required to ...

Under the hon. Gentleman’s approach to lobbying, how many companies would be on the register and ...

This is a £2 billion industry, and what we propose would cover almost all the activity that we ca...

rose—

I will give way to my hon. Friend and then wind up.

I noticed that the Minister did not respond to my hon. Friend’s important point that 95% of lobby...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is of course right. The whole industry agrees without except...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

No—I am about to finish.

The consequence is that the public would have no knowledge of how ...

It is important that we are having the Committee stage of this Bill on the Floor of the House bec...

The hon. Lady, who is fair minded and independent, is making powerful points. Could she prevail o...

The hon. Gentleman makes partisan comments about a Tory Government rather than the coalition Gove...

Voluntary organisations have big concerns. Age Concern could lobby on a number of issues, so it c...

I do not have a problem with having a full, fair and transparent register of lobbying activities....

Does my hon. Friend agree that when the barnacles are scraped off the boat—including our entire p...

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. Many Members will have short careers in this place and I a...

The hon. Lady’s proposed new clause has a lot to recommend it, but most lobbyists would disagree ...

The hon. Gentleman is right. I am not decrying lobbyists. What I am saying is that I need to know...

I am very interested in what the hon. Lady is saying. I am not clear whether her new clause cover...

The hon. Lady raises a large number of points. As I have said, I am not wedded to new clause 5. I...

I want to seek clarification on that point. A trustee of a charity might say in a board meeting, ...

My hon. Friend makes a fair point. I do not have a legal brain, but it might be possible to sort ...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I am just about to draw to a close because I would like to hear about the amendments tabled by ot...

rose—

I will take one intervention from the hon. Lady and then I will conclude.

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady and I am intrigued, and very pleased, to see her new clause t...

I hope the DPP is always considered to be independent, but if there is some legal reason why that...

Even that most brutal sport, boxing, has a code of honour so that when an opponent is bloody, bat...

I would like to understand how many people the hon. Gentleman believes will be required to regist...

Under the Government proposals, the Public Relations Consultants Association says that less than ...

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I will give way first to my hon. Friend from the Select Committee.

I also sat on the Public Administration Committee in the previous Parliament, and evidence was gi...

Indeed, and for Labour colleagues who unkindly say that the Government are not seeking consensus,...

Like most hon. Members, my hon. Friend will remember the campaigns for a lobbying Bill. Most peop...

My hon. Friend makes wise points. Perhaps I should excuse myself for having a little bit of fun a...

Will the hon. Gentleman clarify one thing? I have sought clarification from the hon. Member for H...

I am very much in favour of extending the register to in-house lobbyists because many people rega...

I should reinforce that point. There was no ministerial logging of the meeting to which I have re...

It is not for me to network within the coalition Government, but I advise the Deputy Leader of th...

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful case. He is describing how the public regard both hon. Member...

It beggars belief that we have three days to talk about a lobbying Bill and some of the key issue...

The Deputy Leader of the House made a point about logging meetings with internal representatives ...

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We have only a day to discuss those issues, which will b...

The hon. Gentleman makes a familiar lament. I remember making it myself many times in the previou...

The hon. and learned Gentleman is always very persuasive and clever, so I hope he will be able to...

Let me come on to that question, because I want to tackle it, if it is appropriate to do so, in c...

rose—

I will not give way, because I want to be quite short if I can.

The hon. Gentleman asked me...

rose—

No, I will not give way at this stage. The hon. Gentleman must forgive me. I want to be short, an...

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

No.

It will take seconds.

No.

I hope that those on the Front Bench will consider what I hope they will believe is a c...

In following the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), let me say that I ...

The Government have already said that they are trying to fix a specific issue relating to a gap i...

As other hon. Members have said, we do need a lobbying Bill, but we needed more consultation and ...

My hon. Friend is making an eloquent case. The hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) is a P...

What my hon. Friend describes absolutely trivialises the claims that the Government are making fo...

If some of those meetings are not captured, the only thing open to hon. Members is parliamentary ...

The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. The point of transparency and registration is about being...

Not least in broadcasting, which is one of the most lobbyacious parts of society, and for a very ...

I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman. I will not be tempted to wander away from the issues that ...

Let me illustrate that point. I have just looked at my diary for this week. It contains six meeti...

I do. At risk of receiving a caution from the Chair, I must agree that my hon. Friend is contrast...

As a former lobbyist and an honorary fellow of the Chartered Institute of Public Relations, I hav...

The hon. Gentleman makes a very pertinent point.

This is why so many people are dissatisfie...

This has been a fascinating debate, and I shall not repeat the points that have already been made...

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but does she agree that the transparency shown by publishing...

I do not wish to be rude, but I think that that shows a real lack of understanding about the lobb...

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. It is not the job of a permanent secretary to do particular pi...

I quite agree, so it is not surprising that I did not meet a permanent secretary in any capacity ...

My concern is as follows. If I am approached by a representative of lobbyists from Save the Child...

I feel as if I am being rude to my Back-Bench colleagues, but yet again I think that that demonst...

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, and I agree with every word. On the subject of tax,...

I agree entirely with the principle to which my hon. Friend refers, but as it happens, we had tax...

I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on her speech. I ...

Before my hon. Friend goes into orbit in praising the saintly activities of the lobbying world, w...

I am not suggesting that all lobbyists are saints, but most of the world is somewhere between sai...

Hear, hear.

I do not believe that that is the aim of the Government’s legislation, although it may have sudde...

On a need-to-know basis, I agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I do not wish to use tor...

Absolutely. Indeed, let us get it all out in the open: I used to be a lobbyist. I used to lobby f...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I am happy to give way to the Minister if he can assure me—he need only nod—that he will tell me ...

indicated assent.

All right.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the....

We now know that a Liberal Democrat nod really means a shake of the head. The right hon. Gentlema...

rose—

If the Minister wishes to intervene, he should nod again.

indicated assent.

Right—that is the second nod. I can tell the Minister that the voters will not be prepared to acc...

I can tell the hon. Gentleman the answer to his earlier question: 350 organisations will be cover...

It is not a question of the advantage that they would gain; it is a question of the disadvantage ...

The Deputy Leader of the House has just given a figure of 350. I suspect that the Government pluc...

My hon. Friend is right. It is clear from clause 2—the amendments that we are considering relate ...

My hon. Friend rightly drew attention to the circular definition of a consultant lobbyist in amen...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Such is the paucity of the drafting of the Bill—cobbled toget...

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rose—

I will give way first to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), and then to the hon. and learne...

The hon. Gentleman is entirely right about not just the existing paucity of the definition in the...

I think that that would be slightly to treat the legislation with contempt—so I am right up there...

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen the Leader of the House’s amendments 93 and 94,...

Of course I have read the amendments on pages 658 and 659, but I think they would have exactly th...

The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) is a lawyer.

Yes, that is the point I am making. Because of those grey areas, a great deal of business is like...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Of course I will, although I am aware that not even the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues think he know...

The hon. Gentleman forcefully makes the point that this would be a matter for lawyers, but on my ...

I think I am the only ex-vicar in the Chamber. It is perfectly legitimate for people to lobby, ev...

rose—

Oh, here comes another intervention—on bishops, doubtless.

My concern with the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that this should be a private Member’s Bill is th...

I have been campaigning for a very long time to get rid of the entirely mendacious private Member...

My hon. Friend is making his case rumbustiously, but I just wonder whether I could bring him back...

Order. That was a very long intervention.

Yes, but it was a very good one, because it does make the point. I do not think my hon. Friend wa...

Lowly.

My hon. Friend was a lowly—although perhaps not a very humble—Treasury official, and the point is...

Government Members have suggested that Government amendments 92 and 93 clarify matters, but does ...

My hon. Friend expresses far better than I could exactly what I was trying to say earlier, and sh...

indicated assent.

The Minister is nodding, so Lord Hunt would be included, but what about Peter Wright? He is the f...

I wonder whether my hon. Friend agrees with me about this process. A person who accepts that they...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It does not have to stop there. The lobbyist can carry on, as...

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. Is he aware that Lord Black not only uses his positio...

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. At the risk of travelling too far from the amendment, the...

That is exactly the point I was trying to make in subsection (3) of new clause 5, which states th...

I am sorry, I have obviously not made it clear: I love the hon. Lady. Well, I will not do so when...

Is my hon. Friend aware of the case of Lord Blencathra, who was reported to the parliamentary aut...

What about electing the House of Lords? That is quite a good idea. My hon. Friend is absolutely r...

It is very kind and perfectly charming of the hon. Gentleman to accept an intervention.

I k...

I do not always get things right, it should be said—that is a well-established fact. In this case...

I concur with my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Consensus seems to be emergin...

My hon. Friend illustrates the complexity of the situation. The staff of BAA would have been acco...

That is an extremely valid point. In the real world of lobbying, I have experience of that consti...

I am grateful, Mr Caton, to catch your eye in this debate.

Many colleagues have commented o...

I support the excellent comments that my hon. Friend is making. Will he set himself the challenge...

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend, who spoke eloquently from the Front Bench during proceeding...

I am trying to make some sense of a pretty nonsensical set of proposals. On my hon. Friend’s poin...

I will just touch on the issue of some of the very large firms. One of the huge flaws is the issu...

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. Does he share my concern that unless the Government li...

That is a perceptive intervention with which I wholeheartedly agree. I bear lawyers no ill will, ...

It was indeed a genuine question I asked, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has answered...

With your indulgence, Sir Roger, let me try to answer what I think is a genuine intervention from...

I am trying to understand the intention of the Bill as well as its effect. My understanding of th...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, as ever—I can see why the good Scots of Corby made such an ex...

And who they were lobbying for.

7.45 pm

Yes, but that does nothing to tackle what the rest of the House thinks are the real scandals, suc...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree, however, that some of the cases he just referred to would be cover...

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to set out which of the scandals—MPs for hire, Fred Michel, Fij...

Is not part of the problem that some of the so-called scandals to which the hon. Gentleman refers...

I must say that I think the PRU needs to get a better briefing sorted out, because I am not sure ...

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it would also be a scandal if people got the impression, n...

I can honestly confirm that I am a parliamentary bore and that I am speaking at this great length...

Order. The hon. Gentleman must be aware that he is, and has been, absolutely in order. Were it ot...

I am most grateful to be admonished for staying in order.

The hon. Lady makes a serious poi...

My hon. Friend illustrates the complexity of the industry well. MHP Communications derived origin...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is the heart of the problem. Let me quote what MHP itsel...

I commend to the hon. Gentleman amendment 45 on that subject, which is in the group after next. H...

Amendment 45 is a genuine attempt to address at least some of the problem, and I am grateful to t...

I rise to address the Opposition amendments and to speak in favour of those tabled by my right ho...

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that the Association of Professional Political Consultants...

I am delighted to have taken my hon. Friend’s intervention because I will come on in detail to wh...

Will the Minister give way?

Once.

I had better make it good, then. The Minister said that the amendments are badly drafted—obviousl...

I made it clear at the outset that the Government are seeking to address a slightly different and...

Will the Minister clarify who is included and who is excluded? Can she confirm that in the case o...

The hon. Gentleman fails to take into account what this Government have done to ensure that Minis...

My concern is that the Bill is so narrowly defined it is not worth having unless we expand it, al...

I thank my hon. Friend for rising to make that point, which is valuable and is addressed by some ...

Will the Minister give way?

No. I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once already and I must conclude, because there is ple...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Would the hon. Lady like to explain VAT registration?

It would be a great pleasure to explain VAT registration, but not at this point in time. Is the h...

I am suggesting a clear, simple and recognised threshold to provide a guide for where to put a de...

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but there is a considerable amount of noise coming m...

Thank you, Sir Roger. I will be as quick as I can in making a few points about Government amendme...

It is testimony to the ineptitude of the Government that, after months of delay, they have introd...

I beg to move amendment 3, page 1, line 6, leave out ‘or’ and insert ‘and’.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 4, page 1, line 8, afte...

I rise to speak to the amendments tabled in the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends. Given th...

Given the role of the Association of Professional Political Consultants on standards within the i...

I fear that my hon. Friend’s intervention strikes a chord. I will come on to some of the points m...

Before the issue of burden is appropriate, there comes the question of efficacy, and a comparison...

The advantage of a statutory code of conduct is that it covers everybody. The problem with a volu...

I appreciate that point, but one could argue that with an industry-based code of conduct to which...

I hear the point the hon. Gentleman makes, but I am sure he will have realised in the course of h...

The discussion seems to be going against the grain of recent experience and, when it comes to reg...

My hon. Friend makes an important point. One way to have transparency and clarity and to minimise...

The hon. Gentleman clearly sees the new clause as providing some kind of Lynton Crosby moment. Pe...

With all due respect to the hon. Lady, I do not share her view. New clause 2 would help to preven...

rose—

Just let me try to answer the question a little further. The new clause would stop the ongoing co...

The hon. Gentleman seems keen to create a media storm around Lynton Crosby’s involvement, but it ...

If Lynton Crosby is only doing a bit of analytical work on polling data, I would gently suggest t...

Let me clarify my interpretation of the debate on the amendments to which my hon. Friend is speak...

My hon. Friend makes the perfectly reasonable point that new clause 2 is an attempt to prevent th...

It is very generous of my hon. Friend to offer the creation of a more effective Bill to the tende...

I agree that pre-legislative scrutiny would have been extremely useful in respect of the Bill. Ne...

It is a lovely surprise to be called to speak so early in this debate. First, I must say that I a...

I strongly support the points that have just been made, and I am happy to add my name to the amen...

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the many benefits of pre-legislative scrutiny might have be...

There are so many possibilities where a contribution might have been made, and where no contribut...

Order. The hon. Gentleman is very experienced and he knows perfectly well that he may not debate ...

Therefore it is important that the issues in this group are debated. That is what I want to get t...

Is not one of the concerns about the short time that we have to debate even this group of amendme...

Sir Roger, my hon. Friend on the Front Bench deserves a severe reprimand for trying to mislead me...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will gladly give way.

That was said with great enthusiasm. I thank the hon. Gentleman for gladly giving way. That is ve...

Witnesses did indeed express great concern about the narrowness of the provision whereby those wh...

I am not testing the hon. Gentleman’s memory at all. I am sure that his recall is clear and that ...

I do not feel competent to give an accurate and helpful answer to the hon. Lady’s point. She and ...

I want to respond to a couple of the amendments before we wind up. Amendments 3 and 4 would alter...

The hon. Lady says that the amendment makes no provision for a description of what might be in th...

It is interesting that the Opposition have spent a good four hours telling us to do what the indu...

rose—

It might be helpful if the hon. Gentleman allowed me to make a few points in response to his inte...

I intervened to give the hon. Lady an opportunity to correct the record. It is not true that the ...

I have just gone to the lengths of providing the hon. Gentleman with an argument, with internatio...

I have listened carefully and intently to the Minister. Where in the Bill is the independence of ...

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s arguments in support of amendment 136. I regard the Bill and the exp...

Business is proceeding in such a fashion that we may not even get to the very important questions...

I am exceedingly grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because it gives me the opport...

Order. I think it only right to say that amendment 151 will not be moved because it will not be c...

I will beg to move the amendment at the appropriate time.

That is a wonderful precedent. I have a large number of other amendments on the Order Paper. I am...

Order. Nice try.

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

With that, I will finish speaking so that it is p...

Will the Minister give way?

Yes.

As the Minister is in such a generous mood, would she like to look at my amendment 45?

While we are discussing the topic of further amendments to support, I ought to add that the Oppos...

rose—

Order. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) will be aware that we are pressed ...

I associate myself with the comments of the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) about the...

The way we have dealt with the Bill has meant that much of today’s debate has been esoteric and a...

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that after the mess of today, tomorrow is an opportunity to de...

I indicated in my opening remarks that amendment 3 was a probing amendment. Even though the Minis...