Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

I shall come on to the detail a little later in my speech and I want to start, if I may, by reite...

rose—

I will give way to the Chairman of the Joint Committee, but I will not start a rash of giving way...

Do I detect from the warm way in which the Minister responded and referred to the report of the J...

Minded to? Certainly—we will accept some of them. I speak warmly of the Joint Committee because I...

Not only will judges not have the full information, but when cases are settled, adverse inference...

I entirely agree. We keep being reminded of that. The fact is that the reputational damage is pro...

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way? On that point?

Let me just explain. All of this is relevant.

Some of our critics appear to be arguing deci...

What inference does my right hon. and learned Friend think the public will draw if the Government...

The inference I would draw is that at least a judge, doing the best that he or she can, has had a...

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of a criminal trial that took place some years ago ...

Nothing in the Bill will affect the criminal law. No one will be prosecuted on the basis of secre...

Given what he said earlier about closed material procedures, how would the right hon. and learned...

I was intending to return to the details of closed material procedures later. We could easily tra...

It is being appealed.

Of course it is being appealed, but that does not alter my point. Depending on which side one is ...

On exactly that point, my right hon. and learned Friend—and he is my friend—said that these proce...

The special advocates surprised me with the ferocity of the evidence they provided. They start fr...

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is correct to say, of course, that the previous Labour Admin...

I accept the right hon. Gentleman’s statistics. I cannot confirm them, as I do not have them myse...

It was me.

It was he, as Home Secretary, who introduced them. They arose partly at the behest of human right...

rose—

rose—

Let me move on, because I am probably moving on to the point of concern—

On this point.

All right.

My right hon. and learned Friend referred to the ability of the special advocate to challenge the...

I shall turn to some of this detail, but gisting is allowed under the Bill. The judge will have a...

My right hon. Friend is very generous in giving way and I understand the dilemma he faces, but is...

In a criminal case, that is so. That is why we cannot prosecute some people we really should, bec...

rose—

I shall give way one last time, and then I must press on to the JCHR’s amendments.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that although the proposed system is not perfect and ...

The time has come for reform. The present system is not defensible, in my opinion, and my hon. Fr...

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way one last time?

I keep giving way one last time, so, with apologies to my hon. Friend, let me turn to what I thin...

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

If it is on a British process, not a Strasbourg one.

It is on the Law Lords themselves in the past and now the Supreme Court. Does my right hon. and l...

There are other occasions on which we shall no doubt debate parliamentary override of the courts ...

I am grateful for the opportunity to question the Minister. My main concern is where the discreti...

I answered that in the written question that the hon. Lady put to me. She is welcome to put an or...

In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), the Minister outlin...

It sounds as though it could be criminal action in that case, which the provision would not apply...

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will have seen the strongly worded letter from the Cabinet S...

Constitutionally, I will respect the Scottish Government’s position. If they think that Scots are...

I conducted in excess of a dozen PII trials as a criminal barrister. Does the Minister accept tha...

Yes, because we want a process whereby the judge can hear the evidence of the intelligence agenci...

I want to tease out the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s view on the balancing test, which is p...

The balance is indeed difficult to draw. We have debated the balancing test on various occasions ...

indicated assent.

My hon. Friend is nodding; he will be presenting our reactions.

“Norwich Pharmacal” is the ...

rose—

I will give way and then seek to persuade the House that those fears are not fanciful or false; t...

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way. I entirely agree; he has admirably put f...

The practical effect of the Bill is exactly as my hon. Friend recommends, although it may have be...

In support of what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said, I should say that the Intellig...

I close my case, as they say; there is no need for me to carry on addressing the House about Norw...

My right hon. and learned Friend said that the Intelligence and Security Committee will hencefort...

I have the greatest respect for the Wright Committee and we will consider the matter further, alt...

indicated assent.

My right hon. and learned Friend nods his head in approval.

The arrangements that we are pr...

The Minister without Portfolio has spoken for exactly one hour. Everyone will be pleased to know ...

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Just this once. I want to make progress because many other Members want to get in.

My right hon. Friend will be well aware that in cases of allegations of torture and extraordinary...

I will come to some of the huge improvements made in the other place.

The Government claim ...

Extraordinary assertions keep being made outside this House that the Bill allows Ministers to dec...

I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not practised law for a while, but he is wro...

rose—

I will give way to the Minister without Portfolio. Clearly, one hour was not enough for him.

We are merely warming up. To refresh the right hon. Gentleman’s memory, I have a copy of the orig...

The right hon. and learned Gentleman can use the present or past tense, but the reality is that, ...

rose—

Order. There is a 10-minute limit on contributions from now on, with the usual injury time for up...

As Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, I will concentrate my comments on the pro...

I point out to my right hon. and learned Friend that that situation means that refusal is possibl...

I agree with my right hon. Friend. There has to be an ultimate right for the Prime Minister to de...

I pay tribute to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his leadership of the Intelligence and ...

I must first reciprocate the right hon. Lady’s compliment. She has made an enormous and much-resp...

It is a pleasure to follow the chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the right hon...

My right hon. Friend has pursued the issue of inquests with huge tenacity, and he makes an almost...

I do not make light of the issues. If intelligence were shared with a coroner, but not with the f...

My right hon. Friend will not be surprised that I beg to differ strongly on that point. The idea ...

As ever, I warmly welcome the intervention of my hon. Friend, even though for some years we have ...

Having served on the Intelligence and Security Committee for more than a decade after it was firs...

My right hon. Friend may like to know that part of the intention of the reforms is to ensure that...

That is very helpful. There is a success story here: the Committee is still building the relation...

I welcome the contribution of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who ...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis), whose Committee—the Joint C...

What role does the right hon. Gentleman imagine a defence lawyer would have in such proceedings?<...

A defence lawyer has the role of challenging the evidence, but I will come back to the right hon....

My right hon. Friend has chosen to quote Lord Pannick, but in the debate in the House of Lords on...

Exactly—or not exactly, in the context of this debate. Much depends on how the Government decide ...

rose—

If my right hon. and learned Friend will forgive me, I have run out of injury time.

If a ca...

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

I will, but only because it is to the right hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Gentleman is right that no one can say that PII has lead to a disclosure of eviden...

I missed the right hon. Gentleman’s last words.

The whole point of PII is that it excludes evidence. Therefore, by definition, there can be no co...

PII balances the demands of national security and justice—that is exactly what it does. I do not ...

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). I am not ...

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although these proposals are a radical departure, the circu...

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Since the terrorist threat to the country has increased...

The right hon. Lady might not be aware, but the greatest release of intelligence information in h...

I think the right hon. Gentleman gets the balance wrong in that case. I think of the information ...

My right hon. Friend referred to US concerns based on the Binyam Mohamed case. Does she not, and ...

I think the Americans have a great deal of concern about many legal jurisdictions when it results...

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the American courts do not provide that absolute level of prote...

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, clearly the control principle relates to relationships betwee...

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). I am not ...

Before I come to the merits of the Bill, I would like to draw the House’s attention to the fact t...

Does my right hon. Friend really think that the work of an Intelligence and Security Committee al...

That has been the charge against the ISC in the past, and I am glad that things are going to chan...

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the observation by my right hon. Friend the Member for H...

Yes, and using PII certificates in respect of evidence that is central to a case is profoundly un...

Order.

3.41 pm

It is pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), the former Home Secretar...

With reference to our party conference, there are those who, like me, would perhaps see closed ma...

That is a point of view, but I am not sure. I have not discussed it with my hon. Friend. The poin...

It is interesting to follow the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes)...

I am listening very carefully to the right hon. Gentleman. Is not the problem with his argument o...

The hon. Gentleman has obviously thought about this, and he may well be right, but at the moment ...

I am tempted on the whole to agree with the thrust of the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, but I ...

I believe that it does.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

I would like to make some progress.

I have no time to deal with that at this stage. The hon...

I am grateful that this Bill began its journey in the other place, so that people, such as myself...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), who set out neatly and succ...

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is very important that the Bill does not prevent the Inte...

My right hon. Friend’s assertion is right. I do not think it is anybody’s intention that that sho...

In support of what the right hon. Gentleman, who is also my friend, has just said, the House shou...

The hon. Gentleman is correct and I am glad that he has added to what I have said.

I will a...

Not difficult.

Indeed. However, I am reassured by the unholy alliance that has been formed between my hon. Frien...

An intervention has indeed been brought on. Will my right hon. Friend concede that during all the...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. In fact, we have almost never agreed on anything, and as far as ...

It has been an interesting debate, full of thoughtful interventions, and I have learned quite a b...

I appreciate the serious point about getting to the bottom of a given rendition. Does my hon. Fri...

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. The judge now has discretion on CMPs—at least, I hope ...

That statement may be accurate in so far as it goes, but one case—the Carnduff case—was stayed be...

I agree that a CMP could be of use in some cases. My point is that the special advocates, who are...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). I want to put on record my ...

I would not want my hon. Friend to take this too far, though.

I am very cautious about claiming agreement and support at any stage, but I thank my right hon. F...

Like me, my hon. Friend was here when the Special Immigration Appeals Commission procedures were ...

Having dealt with cases of constituents who have been refused naturalisation or British nationali...

It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who speaks c...

Does my hon. and learned Friend not also accept that the extension of what would be portrayed as ...

I accept my hon. Friend’s point, but for my own part I do not think the risk is nearly as great, ...

Other Members have observed that there seems to be consensus on part 1 of the Bill, but I may be ...

The point has been made throughout the debate—I have not heard it all as I have been in a Westmin...

That is exactly the nature of the Bill. It is a measure to ensure that the state will be protecte...

One of the least attractive things I have seen in 20-odd years practising at the Bar is lawyers t...

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend, and professional colleague, the Member for Dewsbury (S...

Does my hon. Friend accept that a good way to avoid having to make payouts to Libyan dissidents w...

We do not know that, and that is the problem with the current system. I would accept my hon. Frie...

I reassure my hon. Friend that once the current police inquiries are complete, the intention of t...

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend, and commend him and his Committee for their wo...

I am very pleased, as a former member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, to have the opportu...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart). I seem to remember...

Let me give the hon. Gentleman an example of how the argument about security is used—the Shrewsbu...

With respect, it seems to me that at the moment public interest immunity would be invoked in such...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill).

This...

May I point my hon. Friend to information given by Nicholas Blake QC—he is a special advocate—on ...

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I will give a similar example later in my remarks that bea...

My hon. Friend referred to clause 7 and my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John ...

I respect my right hon. Friend’s point, but the Law Society and many constitutional lawyers are n...

I echo the closing remarks of the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). This has been a b...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the real travesty is the Government having to settle cases and pay...

Absolutely. I could not improve on my hon. and learned Friend’s words. It is wrong not only becau...

The Bill has implications for liberty, security and justice. The fact that those are serious matt...

The hon. Lady and the House may be interested to know that the ISC has decided—it has the agreeme...

I am grateful to the Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee for giving us that infor...

What is the second item?

Ah! Secondly, we would like to see the ISC hold pre-appointment hearings for the agency heads. Th...

I am grateful for the range of contributions that have been made today, including those made by i...

Will the Minister address the implications of schedule 2 part 2 as it applies to Northern Ireland...

I am clear that, as we have said throughout the debate, the measure does not relate to criminal m...