Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Programme motion agreed to on division (300 votes to 243).Consideration of Lords amendments. Lords amendments agreed to. Lords amendments disagreed to. Commons amendments and amendments in lieu made to Lords amendments. Motion that a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments. Reasons reported and agreed to. Message to the Lords to communicate the said Reasons, with the Bill and amendments.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
543 c195-90
Session
2010-12
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. As amended on report.
Tuesday, 20 March 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Tuesday, 20 March 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c266-7 (Link to this contribution)
As I said, this is a question of what lawyers get paid. I am in no way assessing the vulnerability o...
Lord Walney | 543 c266 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister may be aware that Barrow is the constituency with the second highest number of mesothel...
Show all contributions (160)
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c267 (Link to this contribution)
Decisions are made about such cases now, and even under the existing system, if there are large sums...
Andy Slaughter | 543 c267 (Link to this contribution)
Even if damages for future care and losses are protected, the average life expectancy for advanced m...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c268 (Link to this contribution)
People entering into a conditional fee agreement have a relationship with their lawyer, and it is qu...
Helen Jones | 543 c268 (Link to this contribution)
Even if I accepted the Minister's argument about plaintiffs keeping an eye on fees, which I do not, ...
Andy Slaughter | 543 c268-70 (Link to this contribution)
I will be as brief I can, because a number of my hon. Friends also wish to speak to the two amendmen...
Jim Fitzpatrick | 543 c270 (Link to this contribution)
The dangers of asbestos and the risks of asbestosis and mesothelioma have been known since the 1920s...
Andy Slaughter | 543 c270 (Link to this contribution)
That is exactly what is happening.
Helen Jones | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
Is the Minister aware that the lead asbestos case was very complicated and took six years to get to ...
Nia Griffith | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
Can the Minister tell us of one case in which a mesothelioma sufferer has taken something to court t...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
This is not a question of whether mesothelioma sufferers receive adequate legal support but of how m...
Andrew Percy | 543 c266 (Link to this contribution)
A number of my constituents who worked on the docks in Goole and in power stations have been affecte...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c265-6 (Link to this contribution)
No; if the hon. Lady listens, I will answer the question.
Our reforms are intended to redress the u...
Helen Jones | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
As I have just said, lawyers' costs will be met in the usual way. What we are talking about is the s...
Toby Perkins | 543 c266 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister says that a mesothelioma claim is not, by definition, more serious than a personal inju...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c266 (Link to this contribution)
That will depend on the arrangements that they make with their lawyers. Under the new system, for th...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c266 (Link to this contribution)
All non-clinical negligence personal injury cases, including respiratory disease claims, have been o...
Paul Goggins | 543 c277-9 (Link to this contribution)
I begin by paying tribute to Lord Alton and those who supported him in proposing amendment 31. We ha...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c276-7 (Link to this contribution)
Well, that is what a person such as the Minister thinks will happen, as he believes in the market id...
David Anderson | 543 c279 (Link to this contribution)
It is 43 years since I started work as a coal miner, and during the many years for which I was a uni...
Ian Lucas | 543 c275-6 (Link to this contribution)
I shall be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have read an excellent letter from my right hon. Friend th...
Anna Soubry | 543 c275 (Link to this contribution)
That is a strong point, but I have sympathy with the Minister's argument, because everyone who is en...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c276 (Link to this contribution)
I should address this point as it has been raised about half a dozen times. The 25% is a maximum. Be...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c276 (Link to this contribution)
I agreed with everything the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) said. His views are shared by many ...
Lilian Greenwood | 543 c279-80 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that that is why the constituents whom we have been speaking to feel so an...
David Anderson | 543 c280 (Link to this contribution)
What can I say? Someone said earlier that no empathy is being shown, but I think that empathy is bei...
Iain Wright | 543 c280-1 (Link to this contribution)
I rise briefly to support Lords amendment 31. It cannot be right, as my hon. Friend the Member for W...
Nicholas Dakin | 543 c281 (Link to this contribution)
Sadly, the incidence of—
Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day).
The Speaker put forthwith...
Lord Walney | 543 c272-3 (Link to this contribution)
As the shadow Minister has made clear, it does not cover disbursements. The Minister has not been ab...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c272 (Link to this contribution)
It is important to get this right. The particular disease falls within the Government's proposals to...
Tracey Crouch | 543 c271-2 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. It is clear that this disease affects many people.
In ...
Andrew Bingham | 543 c271 (Link to this contribution)
My constituency, like that of my hon. Friend, has a higher than average incidence of mesothelioma. W...
Tracey Crouch | 543 c270-1 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to speak only briefly. I am inclined to support Lords amendment 31 this evening, but I intend...
Andy Slaughter | 543 c270 (Link to this contribution)
I hear cries of ““Shameful!”” from the Government Benches. There should be a little humility and a l...
Anna Soubry | 543 c274-5 (Link to this contribution)
As you have probably gathered, Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not plan to speak in this part of the deb...
Mark Durkan | 543 c275 (Link to this contribution)
Given what the hon. Lady has said, does she think it is appropriate to leave it up to the victims of...
Toby Perkins | 543 c273-4 (Link to this contribution)
I start by echoing the distress expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John ...
David Burrowes | 543 c241 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Catherine McKinnell | 543 c241-2 (Link to this contribution)
I will not, as the hon. Gentleman has not been here for the whole debate.
In regard to Lords amendm...
Sarah Wollaston | 543 c242 (Link to this contribution)
Does the hon. Lady not accept that we have heard today that the threshold will now be two years, rat...
Helen Grant | 543 c242 (Link to this contribution)
Would the hon. Lady not also accept that we have just heard from the Government that a letter from a...
Bill Esterson | 543 c238 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend has made an excellent point about the Government's claimed support for young people. ...
Baroness Chapman of Darlington | 543 c238 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend speaks with considerable personal experience of this issue, and I take what he has to...
Speaker | 543 c238 (Link to this contribution)
Order. A lot of people want to get in and I want to get them all in as quickly as possible, so if Me...
Helen Grant | 543 c238-40 (Link to this contribution)
I declare an interest as a legal aid family lawyer who specialises in domestic violence. I shall spe...
Catherine McKinnell | 543 c240-1 (Link to this contribution)
I want to echo the case made so powerfully by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman)...
Jeremy Corbyn | 543 c236 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes a strong case. Is she aware that the funding cuts to law centres, on top of inc...
Baroness Chapman of Darlington | 543 c236 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am well aware of that point, because those s...
Helen Goodman | 543 c235 (Link to this contribution)
I was slightly confused by what my hon. Friend said about the Lords amendments on domestic violence....
Baroness Chapman of Darlington | 543 c235-6 (Link to this contribution)
On Lords amendment 194.
Campaigners have advocated for nearly two years the funding that I describe...
Julie Hilling | 543 c236 (Link to this contribution)
Is my hon. Friend as shocked as I am to discover that social welfare law advice in Bolton has gone u...
Baroness Chapman of Darlington | 543 c236-8 (Link to this contribution)
That says all we need to say about the state of some of our providers of social welfare advice.
Dec...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c232-3 (Link to this contribution)
No, not all of them, but the vast majority. Once such a case becomes an application for asylum, lega...
Baroness Chapman of Darlington | 543 c233-5 (Link to this contribution)
What a shambles. The Government have had more than a year to consider the Bill, and at the very last...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c232 (Link to this contribution)
Immigration cases involving unaccompanied children who turn up at airports and ports are very diffic...
John McDonnell | 543 c232 (Link to this contribution)
Not all, though.
Ian Lucas | 543 c264 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c264-5 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me a chance to put forward our opposition to the amendments.
F...
Ian Lucas | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
How can appropriate damages be recovered by mesothelioma victims if a proportion of those damages is...
Anna Soubry | 543 c250-1 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with much of what has been said about the Government's change of heart on the definition of ...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c264 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 31.
Speaker | 543 c264 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendment 32, and Government motion to disagree.
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c264 (Link to this contribution)
The Government recognise that mesothelioma is a truly terrible disease—a terminal illness that has a...
Sheila Gilmore | 543 c248 (Link to this contribution)
I would like the hon. Gentleman to respond to a question I put previously: where are the lawyers who...
Robert Buckland | 543 c249 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady is right, in that we already have huge deserts in our legal aid provision. The previou...
Yvonne Fovargue | 543 c249-50 (Link to this contribution)
I wish to support the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and remind the House that there is...
Helen Goodman | 543 c247-8 (Link to this contribution)
Once upon a time the Tory party was the party of liberty, and was particularly energetic in defendin...
Robert Buckland | 543 c248 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to deal with several points raised during consideration of this group of amendments. First, I...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c245-6 (Link to this contribution)
That last comment winded me, because I fully expected the Liberals to vote on their amendment, parti...
Sarah Wollaston | 543 c246-7 (Link to this contribution)
I welcome the significant improvements that have been made in respect of domestic violence, so I sha...
Simon Hughes | 543 c244 (Link to this contribution)
I hope I am not pre-empting my right hon. Friend's argument, but the other thing the Justice Secreta...
Sheila Gilmore | 543 c243-4 (Link to this contribution)
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it a problem that even if a modicum of legal aid were availa...
Tom Brake | 543 c244 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. She makes a strong point that legal aid lawyers need to ...
Catherine McKinnell | 543 c242-3 (Link to this contribution)
My apologies; I do accept what has been said by those on the Government Front Bench today. I am simp...
Tom Brake | 543 c243 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to make a few brief comments, bearing in mind that more Members seek to speak in the debate.
...
Helen Jones | 543 c290 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During the last debate, many of us were dismayed by the conduct of ...
Speaker | 543 c290 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. The Minister is welcome to respond if he wish...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c290 (Link to this contribution)
indicated dissent.
Speaker | 543 c290 (Link to this contribution)
No, he is not going to respond.
The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) will know that I...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c231 (Link to this contribution)
Babies, yes, although exceptional funding rules will apply to other serious cases involving children...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c232 (Link to this contribution)
I really must not, because I have taken well over an hour, although I have given way countless times...
John McDonnell | 543 c231 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c231 (Link to this contribution)
Let me move on, because I am giving way far too much and taking a great deal of time.
Lords amendme...
John McDonnell | 543 c232 (Link to this contribution)
I would not have sought to intervene if I had not been here from the beginning of the debate. I have...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c232 (Link to this contribution)
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has been in the Chamber for very long during this debate. [Ho...
John McDonnell | 543 c232 (Link to this contribution)
I just want to clarify one point.
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c223 (Link to this contribution)
Can the Secretary of State assist us by telling us how the list he read out, which I must say is wel...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c221-3 (Link to this contribution)
But women will get legal aid for seeking the injunction. The hon. Lady is falling into what has happ...
Glenda Jackson | 543 c223 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, welcome the list that the Lord Chancellor read out with regard to domestic violence. Looking...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c223 (Link to this contribution)
I think that I am right in saying that what their lordships tried to do was put one form of definiti...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c220 (Link to this contribution)
What is being missed here is that the evidential gateway is being closed down. I am not saying that ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c220 (Link to this contribution)
Such women will not get an injunction if it turns out that there is no reasonable ground for giving ...
Helen Jones | 543 c221 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Lord Chancellor not accept that the legalistic approach that he is adopting ignores the rea...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c220-1 (Link to this contribution)
I refute the idea that people will be given an injunction at some hearing in order to enable them to...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c223-4 (Link to this contribution)
People can approach their solicitors for advice on family law, as they do now. In an increasing prop...
Stephen Timms | 543 c224 (Link to this contribution)
In cases, of which there are many, where people seek advice from citizens advice bureaux to help the...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c224-5 (Link to this contribution)
I value citizens advice bureaux as highly as the right hon. Gentleman, and ever since the Bill was i...
Tony Lloyd | 543 c219 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State made great play of the ACPO definition of domestic violence, but if the test ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c217-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am not arguing that. I am saying there should be hesitation before the very powerful and quite leg...
Glenda Jackson | 543 c217 (Link to this contribution)
Is the Secretary of State actually arguing that the best way of getting a level playing field is to ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c216-7 (Link to this contribution)
Lords amendment 2 impinges on the financial privileges of the House. I ask the House to disagree to ...
Speaker | 543 c216 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lords amendments 189 to 191.
Lords amend...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c216 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 2.
Gerald Kaufman | 543 c207-8 (Link to this contribution)
I encountered a Member of the House of Lords yesterday. She said, ““I hope you will agree that we ha...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c207 (Link to this contribution)
That is absolutely right, and I am concerned about it. I understand the need for the Government to l...
Sadiq Khan | 543 c207 (Link to this contribution)
Has the right hon. Gentleman had a chance to read the Citizens Advice report published today? The fi...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c219-20 (Link to this contribution)
Let me begin with the domestic violence gateway. The ACPO definition is what the Labour Front-Bench ...
Kate Green | 543 c220 (Link to this contribution)
The Lord Chancellor mentioned that it will still be possible to obtain legal aid to get an injunctio...
Simon Hughes | 543 c206-7 (Link to this contribution)
I was grateful for the Minister's reassurance, but I have to say that I am not persuaded. Like any M...
Sadiq Khan | 543 c206 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend makes an astute point. We all know from our MP surgeries, including those of us not b...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c203 (Link to this contribution)
I simply disagree that face-to-face advice will be appropriate in all cases of disability—quite the ...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c203 (Link to this contribution)
In many cases the support that my hon. Friend's constituents receive will be better received over th...
Adrian Sanders | 543 c203 (Link to this contribution)
We know from our own experience as Members of Parliament that many of our constituents insist on com...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c204 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman's points go more to scope, which is not the subject of this debate, than th...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c204 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman said at the commencement of his remarks that this measure was about targeting res...
John Robertson | 543 c206 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that call centres often have a time limit for handling people?...
Sadiq Khan | 543 c204-6 (Link to this contribution)
We have the first set of knives at 5.30 pm, so we will have had less than 26 minutes to discuss the ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c207 (Link to this contribution)
I have just one or two brief remarks. I am pleased that the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c202-3 (Link to this contribution)
I confirm to my right hon. Friend that it will be possible for all such people to have face-to-face ...
Simon Hughes | 543 c202 (Link to this contribution)
It is fine for hon. Members to use telephone hotlines, but what about those with mental illness, spe...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c202 (Link to this contribution)
We have, and if one were to call the telephone hotline, one would be able to speak in any of 170 dif...
Speaker | 543 c200 (Link to this contribution)
I must draw the House's attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendmen...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c200-2 (Link to this contribution)
Lords amendments 1 and 24 impinge on the financial privilege of this House. I ask the House to disag...
Speaker | 543 c200 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lords amendments 3 and 4, Government moti...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c200 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1.
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c231 (Link to this contribution)
That is an interesting argument. I do not dismiss it, but I do not know of any evidence to support i...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c229 (Link to this contribution)
I give way for the last time.
Helen Goodman | 543 c229 (Link to this contribution)
It would help the House if the Secretary of State could tell us what he means by a point of law. Doe...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c229-31 (Link to this contribution)
It would be reckless of me to try off the cuff to make a tight definition of a point of law. It is a...
Bill Esterson | 543 c231 (Link to this contribution)
The Justice Secretary has moved on from Lords amendment 171. I am concerned about children in care a...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment was tabled only at 6 o'clock yesterday evening, so we have moved quite quickly to get ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c228-9 (Link to this contribution)
The cases that the hon. Lady mentions do not depend on a lawyer. When the right hon. Member for Manc...
Speaker | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The hon. Lady has had a good go at intervening three times. Could interventions please be sho...
Glenda Jackson | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
The Lord Chancellor referred to a majority of cases. Citizens Advice says that the proportion of app...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way once more and then I must get on; otherwise I will take up all the time available my...
Andrew George | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Further to the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Bra...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
I have obviously failed to make myself completely clear, so I will try again. As it stands, the Gove...
Tim Farron | 543 c228 (Link to this contribution)
Before the Secretary of State moves on, may I ask him to give us a time scale?
Robert Buckland | 543 c227 (Link to this contribution)
I am listening to my right hon. and learned Friend's arguments with great care, but I am still puzzl...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c227 (Link to this contribution)
Of course there can be borderline cases, but, with great respect to my hon. Friend, in the vast majo...
Yvonne Fovargue | 543 c225 (Link to this contribution)
The citizens advice bureaux that are so busy lobbying are actually lobbying on behalf of their clien...
Tom Brake | 543 c225 (Link to this contribution)
On points of law, I welcome the concession in relation to upper tribunals and welfare benefits, but ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c225-6 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend anticipates the concession that I was going to explain; it is in the documents ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 543 c226 (Link to this contribution)
I follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman's logic on that, but surely if the point of law is a g...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c226 (Link to this contribution)
I should like to see whether we can devise, with the help of the DWP, my right hon. Friend the Membe...
Simon Hughes | 543 c226-7 (Link to this contribution)
The Secretary of State is being very helpful, and my constituents are absolutely not bothered whethe...
Kate Green | 543 c267 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister not accept, though, that some cases will now simply go unrepresented and unpursued...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c268 (Link to this contribution)
I am actually saying quite the opposite. I am saying that damages are going to be increased, not dec...
Jonathan Djanogly | 543 c265 (Link to this contribution)
Let me repeat what I said: this is not a question of whether the person making a claim has a valid c...
Lord Walney | 543 c272 (Link to this contribution)
It is an honour to follow such a powerful and brave speech from the hon. Member for Chatham and Ayle...
Catherine McKinnell | 543 c242 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, I gladly accept that, but that does not address the underlying concern that the terms are undul...
Tom Brake | 543 c244-5 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention and for putting on the record the fact that the J...
Yvonne Fovargue | 543 c203 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister accept that currently, the CLS gateway is a choice—people can choose to use the ph...
Fiona Mactaggart | 543 c202 (Link to this contribution)
Has the Minister done any studies on the effectiveness of telephone advice lines for people whose fi...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c227 (Link to this contribution)
On the right hon. Gentleman's first point, I can assure him that we are continuing legal aid in all ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 543 c225 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Lady's experience of citizens advice bureaux greatly exceeds my own, but I am pretty certai...
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