UK Parliament / Open data

Scotland Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Thursday, 15 March 2012, in the House of Lords.
Scotland Bill. Lords committee stage fourth day. Clauses 30 to 42 agreed to.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
736 c401-550 
Session
2010-12
Department
Scotland Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Scotland Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 79-EN also published.
Wednesday, 22 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0506
Monday, 19 March 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0507
Monday, 19 March 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2012-0508
Monday, 19 March 2012
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Show all related items (6)
Constitution Select Committee (HL) seventeenth report on the Scotland Bill.
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help my noble friend. Perhaps I misunderstand the position but he speaks from the poin...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c469 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the difficulty here is that there is a broader principle underlying the matter raised by my ...

Show all contributions (406)
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c469 (Link to this contribution) I am alarmed by that because my noble friend tells me that there is a no-detriment agreement, but th...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is not something that has come out of the blue from my mention of it now. It has been...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c467 (Link to this contribution) 54J: Clause 30, page 24, line 36, at end insert— ““(4A) Before exercising any power under this secti...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the basis of that very helpful response, I am pleased to withdraw my amendment. Amendm...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we offer our support to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for the intention that lies undernea...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c467 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 54J requires the Treasury to consult and obtain the consent of the Scottish Parliament bef...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c468 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I am not as convinced by the response to this amendment as I was by the response to...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c468 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend said, this point is very similar to the issue that came up on Amendment 54G. I su...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c468 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure how much more I can do to help my noble friend on this point other than to repeat that...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c466-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment would delete subsection (4) of proposed new Section 80G, which provides for...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend said, Amendment 54H would remove the retrospective element of the power...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c466 (Link to this contribution) 54H: Clause 30, page 24, leave out lines 34 to 36
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c465 (Link to this contribution) 54G: Clause 30, page 24, line 33, at end insert— ““(3A) Before exercising any power under subsection...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c465 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend the Minister dealt with this matter in our discussions. Amendment 54F not moved. A...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c465 (Link to this contribution) 54F: Clause 30, page 23, line 22, at end insert— ““(6) Any organisation collecting, or administratin...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c464-5 (Link to this contribution) Well, I am absolutely persuaded by my noble friend's argument that it would be wholly inappropriate ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c466 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that answer. I have noticed that there is quite a lot of consultation go...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c465-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in seeking further areas of consultation. How true...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c465 (Link to this contribution) This amendment requires the Treasury to consult before altering reliefs, disapplying or nullifying e...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) I will correct this if I am wrong, but I believe that it is set out not in statute but, along with a...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that it is not a convention as defined.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) May I ask the noble Lord about the economic benefits of the change and the reduction in the tax take...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) That is correct, and so it should be. If the UK Government decided to rebalance the taxes in some fu...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) I would not want to get the hopes of the noble Lord or anyone else up too high. It will just bring S...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c472 (Link to this contribution) I am lost. I fear that I do not understand this no-detriment principle. I may be showing my ignoranc...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c472 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that was not a tax issue, and I do not know the detail of that case, but we are talking ab...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c472 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has explained the construct absolutely correctly, so I have no problem with that at a...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c472 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one example is personal allowances, which have a potential impact on tax receipts, and tha...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c472 (Link to this contribution) I want to test this with one other example. Does the Minister recall when, under a previous Labour G...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c471 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, I do not believe that it has exposed a flaw. The decisions which under the Bill, if an...
Earl of Caithness | 736 c472 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can my noble friend give us an example of the two-way process? If he cannot do so now, per...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c471 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure exactly where we are, but as my noble friend Lord Maxton drew my attention to the fact...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c471 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has been a fundamental principle of devolution from the start that if a decision of one...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to press this at this hour but, to give a real example, suppose that it is 2015. We are a...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c470 (Link to this contribution) What I am saying, and why I disagree with my noble friend's analysis, is that this is all about gett...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c470 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to press my noble friend; I am happy for him to elucidate what the position is; but th...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c470 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would help if I write to the noble Lord to make clear exactly how the principle is intend...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c470 (Link to this contribution) It is reassuring to hear that, but can the Minister answer my point? Does it mean what I have just s...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c477 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is probably a very sensible suggestion. We have had a useful debate, if for no other ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c477 (Link to this contribution) I indicated in my remarks earlier that I had intended to oppose these clauses standing part of the B...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c477 (Link to this contribution) 58A: Clause 33, page 27, line 1, at end insert— ““(3) The tax may only be charged by the Scottish Go...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c476 (Link to this contribution) It may seem simple to my noble friend and it may have been discussed for 15 months, but I have to te...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c475 (Link to this contribution) It does not make it right, but what we are discussing this afternoon is nothing new. This has been o...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c477 (Link to this contribution) First, I shall repeat what I believe I said earlier. This adjustment would go two ways. We have talk...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c476-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for trying to cast light into my ignorance, but it is getting worse...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c476 (Link to this contribution) I think the answer to that is no. As has been made clear, we are talking here about the Scottish blo...
Lord Maxton | 736 c476 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord understands it, would the reverse be true? If, say, Mr Alex Salmond decides that h...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c475 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that very helpful intervention. I am glad that the noble Lord has a clear und...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c475 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might try again here. I do not think that my noble friend portrays it as it is going to be...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c473-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a very illuminating debate. I have to say to my noble friend that this princ...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c474 (Link to this contribution) I enter this fantastic debate, as it develops, with some trepidation. It has perhaps been less illum...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c480 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask my noble friend just one more question. Does he think that it might be a good idea...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) Laissez-faire can be a good thing or a bad thing. I suggest to my noble friend and to the Committee ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c480 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my noble friend is not proposing that the Scottish Parliament should somehow devolve ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c481 (Link to this contribution) 59: After Clause 36, insert the following new Clause— ““Air passenger duty (1) In Part 4A of the 199...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c478-9 (Link to this contribution) When my noble friend says that the Scottish Parliament should not have to apply it uniformly through...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c478 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to both Amendments 58A and 58C, which have similar effects—namely that they w...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c479 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can see how the Calman commission had to scrape around to find taxes that the Scottish P...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c479 (Link to this contribution) To be clear, my noble friend talked about different areas. I do not know how a rate may be changed, ...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c485 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is always a danger to generalise from the particular. In this instance, one sees that w...
Earl of Caithness | 736 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not find the argument of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, at all convincin...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c484 (Link to this contribution) It is not for me to answer for the Government. Doubtless that will be done in due course but, accept...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c483 (Link to this contribution) My position is diametrically opposed to that of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on the general power. ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the effect of the amendment is to increase the tax-raising powers of the Scottish Parliame...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c484 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we on these Benches oppose the amendment at this juncture. While true it is that the Calma...
Lord Kilclooney | 736 c483 (Link to this contribution) When discussing what should happen with Scotland, we should always also take into account not just E...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c483 (Link to this contribution) As always, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, follows precisely the recommendations of the Scottish Parli...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c483 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord says that it is up to them. They want this power and Calman recommended it, and it is...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) I have the Explanatory Notes to the Scotland Act here. They state: "““Section 30 … permits certain a...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c486 (Link to this contribution) I merely refer my noble friend to the arguments that I made on this point in our previous Committee ...
Lord Sewel | 736 c486 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I have had a reply to my question from my noble and learned f...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c486 (Link to this contribution) I think that the line is drawn as the Bill stands in its present form, as we debated at considerable...
Lord Sewel | 736 c485 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend talks about being content for the tax to be devolved in due course. That...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c485 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to my noble friend. There is considerable difficulty in identifying where that line sho...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c485 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think I should allow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova, to continu...
Lord Sewel | 736 c486 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister outline the principled argument on which the division is based?
Lord Sassoon | 736 c486 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords; I do not propose to repeat the arguments and debates—interesting, important and length...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c488 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister is discussing air passenger duty then it is surely incumbent on him to try to put it...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c488 (Link to this contribution) Before this stream of questions and interventions I made precisely the point that, in response to th...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c487 (Link to this contribution) Section 30 clearly does not provide for tax powers. But if my noble friend is correct and it does, t...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think that we will have to differ on the construction of powers under the 1998 Act. Howe...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 736 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be appropriate to allow the Minister to finish answering one point before the nex...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c487 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I may finish. I merely wanted to remind noble Lords, as a background to this discussion ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think my noble friend will find that taxation is set out in Schedule 5 to that Act, if m...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c488 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me if I do not give way to the noble Lord immediately. His last intervention was rather long...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c488 (Link to this contribution) We have spent 30 minutes on this amendment, and that is not unduly long.
Lord Sassoon | 736 c489 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, asked me two questions. I answered one; I was coming...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the St Augustine approach to the Calman commission is upon us. We have heard repeatedly th...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c490 (Link to this contribution) Only one way. One-way tickets. Perhaps I may suggest that this is a possible area for the Office of ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c490 (Link to this contribution) From memory, it applies both ways for Inverness but the relief is available only one way for airport...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c490 (Link to this contribution) So it is a policy that encourages emigration from the highlands and islands. The very fact that ther...
Earl of Caithness | 736 c490 (Link to this contribution) For Wick and the islands, the duty is relieved on the way out, not the way in.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c491-4 (Link to this contribution) 62ZA: After Clause 36, insert the following new Clause— ““Aggregates levy (1) In Part 4A of the 1998...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c490-1 (Link to this contribution) So my noble and learned friend was right. That is odd, as it encourages people to leave and not to a...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c495 (Link to this contribution) First, on my count of the progress that we are making, I have ticked off 19 groups and we have 10 to...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c495 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister's count is more accurate than mine—I would split the difference—but it is still...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c494 (Link to this contribution) This feels like Groundhog Day. I thought that the committee of the Scottish Parliament that looked ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) While the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has been talking, and now that he is talking about aggregates ta...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c496 (Link to this contribution) I tried to make it clear that while we could draw up—as he has had a shot at drawing up—a technical ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c496 (Link to this contribution) I am still a bit puzzled. Perhaps I do not understand it. Are the Government still collecting this l...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) Right. I had quite forgotten that we are on the aggregates levy. Let me answer my noble friend's poi...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c496 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very puzzled by this. The Minister says that the amendment is competent. The Minister...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c497 (Link to this contribution) Let me make one last attempt at trying to help my noble friend as to why particularly the legal chal...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c497 (Link to this contribution) An argument that says, ““We cannot put it in the Bill because we are not sure about the legality but...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c515 (Link to this contribution) 66: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— ““Referendum about further devolution of taxat...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) She may still be alive but she is no longer leading the Labour Party in Scotland. I do not want to r...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c517 (Link to this contribution) It may be that the lateness of the hour and the number of amendments we have dealt with have addled ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c515-7 (Link to this contribution) Hours ago, when we started this Committee, we got into a terrible fankle over which amendments we we...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c513-4 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend. The only sadness I have about this debate is that we did not ...
Lord Maxton | 736 c514 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord said ““late lamented””—Wendy is still very much alive.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c512 (Link to this contribution) I am a wee bit suspicious of Conservative government Ministers when they tell me that they agree wit...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c513 (Link to this contribution) I am very glad that we have that clearly on the record. I did think at one point at the beginning of...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening quite carefully to my noble friend's argument and I see the logic of where he ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not know whether it was an Augustinian argument but I was going to start by saying th...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c511 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, it is a pity that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has not been able to join us this e...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c509-11 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am opposed to the amendment on the basis of the rather feeble argument of the doctrine o...
Lord Lyell | 736 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend, who has far more experience of finance than I ever will have, mentioned Germany; I ...
Earl of Caithness | 736 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to join in the discussion on this almost Second Reading series of amendments....
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c506 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, very briefly, I cannot support this amendment. It will not achieve what the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c506 (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Lord just explain to me how that would work? What basket of taxes could meet the bil...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c507 (Link to this contribution) That is the conundrum that needs to be resolved, but it can be resolved by giving the Scottish Parli...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c507 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord. However, the First Minister also says that Scotland could join...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c507 (Link to this contribution) I hope the noble Lord will continue to live in Scotland for a long time and that his life will not e...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c501 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the Minister for his careful clarification of the position. There is much content in...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c500-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the short answer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova, is that the a...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c502 (Link to this contribution) 65: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— ““Allocation of public funds to Scotland (1) T...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c503-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord may be surprised to hear that I agree with him. I am deeply concerned about what is g...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c503 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord not concede that this is probably the wrong time to change the Barnett formula, ...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c500 (Link to this contribution) 62A: Clause 37, page 29, line 2, after ““may”” insert ““with the consent of the Treasury””
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very, if I may put it this way, gentle, probing amendment. It looks at Clause 37...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c499 (Link to this contribution) I am struggling to see where this is going. The Government have said all along that we intend to dev...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c499-50 (Link to this contribution) Right. Well, on the basis of that undertaking, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Am...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c498 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, I am afraid that I will not be able to help my noble friend. There is one subsidiary p...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c498 (Link to this contribution) That is to concede the point. If my noble friend is saying that the legal challenge might result in ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) I simply do not know where the courts will come out, but there are some constraints. As regards some...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c497 (Link to this contribution) I have to say to my noble friend that at 7 pm on a Thursday night, after six hours of this Bill, to ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c499 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that my noble friend is getting bored with this, but he has not actually answered my ques...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) When my noble friend says that we will draft them when there is a safe basis on which they can come ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c526 (Link to this contribution) We might get through this one tonight.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c525-6 (Link to this contribution) I was going to say that I was once given the advice, which I believe is part of the Whips' Office ma...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c526 (Link to this contribution) As I say, we might get through this one tonight. I well understand what my noble friend wants to ach...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we need to make sure that UK expenditure, including Scottish expenditure, continues to be ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am perfectly content to accept that the amendment may not have been perfectly drafted, b...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) If my memory serves me, it was got under control by ending the system of end-year flexibility for de...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c527 (Link to this contribution) For the purposes of clarity, my recollection is that the problem arose before I became Chief Secreta...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c529 (Link to this contribution) As I have already explained to my noble friend, the Treasury—we have one former Chief Secretary here...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) Again, I struggle to see the logic of the Government's position. Throughout the course of today, we ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c530 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move. Amendments 71A to 71C (to Amendment 71) not moved. Amendment 71 agreed. Amendment ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c530 (Link to this contribution) 71: Before Clause 38, insert the following new Clause— ““Convention rights and EU law: role of Advoc...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c529 (Link to this contribution) I shall not pursue this matter ad nauseam but I have to say to my noble friend, very politely, that ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c532-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment deals with the Civil Service in Scotland. It says: "““Any code of conduct c...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c532 (Link to this contribution) 73: After Clause 38, insert the following new Clause— ““The civil service in Scotland (1) The 1998 A...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c531 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move. Amendments 72A to 72K (to Amendment 72) not moved. Amendment 72 agreed. Clause 38 ...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c537-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on his amendment. Even if it is defective, it is important ...
Lord Sewel | 736 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, normal service has roughly been resumed. Having spoken against the proposition put by my n...
Lord Sewel | 736 c518 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is inevitable that this bit of our proceedings will be dominated by an argument not so ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening carefully to the debate, but my brain might be addled as well. When did we sta...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c519 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, given the journey that we have embarked on, I suspect that the noble Lord may get his wish...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 736 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought that I was going to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, but I find that I tak...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c522-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord did not quite hear what I said. Many people argued that the Scottish Parliament shoul...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c522 (Link to this contribution) The Minister used the word mandate, but my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton used the phrase ““par...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c519-20 (Link to this contribution) I am doing my best. I am very worried, because I am also tempted to divide the Committee, if only fo...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c519 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend Lord Sewel said, that would not be a pretty sight, I can assure you. The cybernat...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we return to the issue of the referendum. In the group of amendments to which the noble Lo...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c520-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, almost everyone who is in the House now will recollect that when I last spoke at any lengt...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c525 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 66 withdrawn. Amendments 67 to 69 not m...
Lord Lyell | 736 c525 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has been very kind in referring to me. He made a passionate comment but he was very m...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c523-4 (Link to this contribution) He is a member of the NATO delegation, but he understands the European issues and I am sure that he ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c523 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I said at the start, the purpose of my amendment was to have a debate on it. There are ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c525 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that they have been listening but they have not conceded anything. They have not moved to ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c525 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord did say that.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c525 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, thinks that I have spent the pas...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c525 (Link to this contribution) 70: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— ““Scottish Consolidated Fund (1) The 1998 Act ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c549 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am reluctant to speculate on that, other than to say that I think we will come back to t...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c550 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend for dealing with this issue so carefully. I shall ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c543 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has participated in this very good debate. It underlines wha...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c543 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord does not divide the Committee, he could put an amendment down and we could talk ab...
Lord Browne of Belmont | 736 c541 (Link to this contribution) I have no idea where distinguished Members of this House might be at this time of night—but, certain...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c541-3 (Link to this contribution) Picking up where the noble Lord, Lord Browne, left off, to be fair the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, did...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 736 c543 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister consider whether the mode of investigation of alleged breaches of these codes of i...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c543 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend raises an important point which goes beyond Scotland. It is a fundamental ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c540 (Link to this contribution) It is in the name of your noble friend Lord Foulkes.
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; it is. I have been here too long now; I am too tired and that is it. It is an indication...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c541 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord that it would have been marvellous to have contributions from the noble ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c543-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what a very helpful suggestion indeed. I will immediately investigate it. I agree with the...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c548 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, but I think it might be helpful if my noble and learned friend would indicate how much longe...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c548 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is losing his voice; Members of the House are losing their stamina; we are dwindling...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c545-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, initially I had no sympathy at all with this amendment. I think that is a consequence of p...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c546-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I listened with interest to the contributions of my noble friend Lord Forsyth and the nobl...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c544 (Link to this contribution) 74: After Clause 38, insert the following new Clause— ““Imposition of surcharges The Secretary of St...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c545 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some months ago I tabled Amendment 74, which would provide for some kind of sanction shoul...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c544 (Link to this contribution) It is an order, and I accept the fact that it should be looked at again. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyt...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c549 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend. Of course I understand that there is an opportuni...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend indicated that this is sensitive ground. If he cares to read the lecture t...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c426 (Link to this contribution) If such an event came about, any retractions that might be required from any quarter could also be a...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c423 (Link to this contribution) They were, quite a long time ago. I remember it. This goes against the noble Lord's theory that no o...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c424 (Link to this contribution) 53A: Clause 30, page 23, line 6, at end insert— ““( ) If the application of the Scottish Rate would ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c424 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. I do not remember those days but then the noble Lord is a little older than me. However,...
Lord Lyell | 736 c425 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend on this amendment. I hope that I have brought with me the correct...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c425 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not propose to rehearse all the arguments that we have just had, although I am being ...
Lord Lyell | 736 c425 (Link to this contribution) Shall I be able to refer to them at a later stage? I assume that they will be called and that I shal...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c425 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should have made it clear that these amendments are being degrouped, so we are just discus...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c426 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree. I think that if the proposal were to lower the rate of income tax, something so ...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c426 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add some further Angusian support for the amendment, recognising that Angus is well re...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c420 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to go back over old ground and reopen old wounds, but as I recall, I was the pe...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c419-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments we are discussing relate to whether there should be a referendum on the pro...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c418-9 (Link to this contribution) I should like to follow my noble friend and say that I do not support the amendment. I had the privi...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had an interesting debate and I am grateful to everyone who has spoken. I seem to ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c421 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not have any doubt that we would win a referendum, I just did not think it was neces...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c420-1 (Link to this contribution) That absolutely illustrates my view. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, says that people's attitudes to re...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c420 (Link to this contribution) I am probably going to compound matters by saying that it was opposed by the Scottish Liberal Democr...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c423 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the memory of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, goes back to the time when the Tories w...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c422-3 (Link to this contribution) I venture to suggest that I cannot think of any way in which any politician of any party, with the s...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c422 (Link to this contribution) It is an important part of the noble Lord's argument that there is an inevitability of Scotland beco...
Lord Sewel | 736 c414 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that. Have any amendments been degrouped?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c413-4 (Link to this contribution) I hope I can be helpful. My understanding is that my noble friend Lord Forsyth has spoken to a group...
Lord Sewel | 736 c413 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I refer to the earlier discussion about groupings. Do I take it that the authoritative gro...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c417 (Link to this contribution) I hope I may interrupt the noble Lord again. His speeches are always carefully crafted and well thou...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c416 (Link to this contribution) I agree that all those definitions could be advanced and are open to argument, but what about someth...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c414-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, for his amendments and for opening this debate. I al...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 736 c413 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Forsyth is suggesting that we need another referendum on the use of t...
Lord Lyell | 736 c413 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was delighted to see my noble friend Lord Attlee here, because I was about to follow som...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c417-8 (Link to this contribution) I hope the noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that I anticipated this very point about devo-ma...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c406-7 (Link to this contribution) That is perfectly fair and I will come on to address that. I was simply making the observation that ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c406 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend says that the legislative consent Motion stands. However, will he deal w...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c407 (Link to this contribution) I agree with much of what the noble Lord says. He is right to point out that prorogation is sooner r...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c407 (Link to this contribution) It would be helpful to be updated at that stage and to set a target, in our plan, for an update to t...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c408 (Link to this contribution) There was an expectation across the Floor of the House that we should defer Committee discussion unt...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c408 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very respectfully remind my noble and learned friend that the Bill is before Parliament....
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c409 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there are a number of possible options if the legislative consent Motion is not forthcomin...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c409 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend said that Parliament will decide the final shape of the Bill, but there ...
Lord Grocott | 736 c408 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask about a matter of significance to this Parliament. Will the Minister clarify wheth...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c408 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, that this is not an abuse. The ma...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c408 (Link to this contribution) With respect to the Minister, all that was agreed was that the discussion of the referendum should b...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c409 (Link to this contribution) The convention and the devolution guidance notes that update it state that we seek a legislative con...
Earl of Caithness | 736 c409 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my noble and learned friend for not being here when the debate started, but I was in ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c409 (Link to this contribution) That is two options, for a start, and a third option could be to pass it and park it. We are seeking...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c412-3 (Link to this contribution) I specifically asked in an e-mail, which got a response from the clerks' office, for my amendments t...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c412 (Link to this contribution) We are very confused, because I got a draft that said that, but the paper from the government Whips'...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c412 (Link to this contribution) I have the same problem. I have a revised list that I got from the Whips' Office and it would be rea...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c412 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether everyone in the House is absolutely clear, because I am slightly confused about it,...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c412 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly my understanding, and I think it is the understanding of my noble friend, that the a...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c410 (Link to this contribution) 53: Clause 30, page 23, line 6, at end insert— ““(9) This section is subject to section (Referendum ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c410-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an important amendment, which provides for a referendum, if the sections of the Bi...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c403 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether I might add a few words at the risk of being classified yet again as one of the ter...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before continuing the Committee stage of the Bill, I should like to ask my noble and learn...
Lord Strathclyde | 736 c401 (Link to this contribution) That the House do now resolve itself into Committee. That the House do now resolve itself into Comm...
Lord Strathclyde | 736 c403 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord. We are speaking on a Motion to go into Committee. Unless the...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c403 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord waited a little longer, he might find out exactly what I was going to say. It is a...
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 736 c404 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has raised the issue of the legislative consent Motion and my noble fr...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c405 (Link to this contribution) I shall savour that apology. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his gracious apology. I shall bank ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c405-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, picking up on the final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, there was a commitment ...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c404-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is with some reluctance that I rise to speak but I think that my contribution will subs...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c405 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord if I implied that he was responsible for it. I was misinformed.
Lord Sewel | 736 c458 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord reaches his peroration, as I am sure he will shortly, does he not accept the p...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c458 (Link to this contribution) I would guess that that must be because electoral registration offices have far more staff than HMRC...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c458 (Link to this contribution) I have considerable respect for the noble Lord, who of course was the architect of the whole devolut...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me have a go again. I think that my noble friend has answered the key part of the ques...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c456-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that my noble friend is missing the point that is being made; namely, that the Revenue is ab...
Lord Maxton | 736 c457-8 (Link to this contribution) When the noble Lord talks about voting, someone moving from Scotland to England would be able to mov...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c457 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a very useful debate. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Myners, for h...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c456 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can come back to my noble friend's point before he jumps in again. He gave an example to m...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c456 (Link to this contribution) That is definitely a point to the noble Lord. I was thinking on my feet and of course he is quite ri...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c455-6 (Link to this contribution) I repeat that if the noble Lord, Lord Myners, had been able to be here for the earlier discussion, t...
Lord Myners | 736 c455 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I have asked the Minister a very simple question. He has told us that for practical ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c455 (Link to this contribution) This is all very good theatre, but we discussed the basic question of UK residence earlier this afte...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c455 (Link to this contribution) I was here for the paving debate and the Minister did not deal with the specific point that my noble...
Lord Myners | 736 c455 (Link to this contribution) That is language of asperity. If the Minister does not withdraw, I will move a Motion that the House...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c455 (Link to this contribution) First, if the noble Lord, Lord Myners, had actually been here for the substantive discussion of the ...
Lord Myners | 736 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the Minister's response to the previous amendment and to this amendment. I s...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c454 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend's amendment would introduce the concept of split-year treatment for those ...
Lord Sewel | 736 c454 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to keep on going back to 1997-98, but this was the sort of problem that aros...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c463 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, might I also perhaps encourage the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, to consider the p...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c463-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I see a clear distinction between the previous category of people and parliamentarians, wh...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c463 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I follow exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is doing but it gets worse and worse. ...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c461 (Link to this contribution) With respect, throughout the previous debate, the Minister said that the definition of Scottish resi...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c460 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to keep this debate to discussion about Scottish taxpayers. As my noble frien...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 736 c461-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suspect that there is nobody listed in the category in the Bill who does not live in Sco...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c461 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, my Lords, I thought that we were straying into questions about tax status and Members of...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c462 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think the Minister made the case for having this in the Bill when he was trying t...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c462 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has drawn attention to a point of principle here. Creating special cat...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c462-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having just argued for that measure to be removed from the Bill, and having listened caref...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c462 (Link to this contribution) 54D: Clause 30, page 23, line 21, at end insert— ““(d) a judge, peer or civil servant with responsib...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c460 (Link to this contribution) However, will the Minister confirm that not all Members of this Parliament are treated as British ta...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c460 (Link to this contribution) Well, my Lords, let me give it a go. My noble friend is not easy to satisfy on these things, but I a...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c460 (Link to this contribution) Actually, I am not a tax expert. I think that my noble friend is taking us down a diversion, because...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c458-9 (Link to this contribution) I must take the noble Lord's word for it because he moves in those circles and I do not. I return t...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c458 (Link to this contribution) I was about to go on to say that I am not sure that this problem would have arisen under the definit...
Lord Sewel | 736 c458 (Link to this contribution) Not in the way the present lot are trying to define it.
Lord Lyell | 736 c460 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my noble friend Lord Forsyth. I want to call him Lord ““Bazooka”” Forsyth because he ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 736 c459 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have to tell the Committee that if Amendment 54C is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 5...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c459 (Link to this contribution) 54C: Clause 30, page 23, leave out lines 18 to 21
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c444 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was going to follow up on the noble Lord's point by saying that one of the consequences ...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c443-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for seeking to respond to this very complex issue. The kind of people ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c445 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that my noble friend may not have had briefing or thought about the question of benefit...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c444 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I have tried to explain—and we can talk about the block grant at another point—the key ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c445 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to give that confirmation and will write.
Lord Gilbert | 736 c445 (Link to this contribution) I distinctly heard a few minutes ago the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, refer to bogus companies. This is...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c445 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if the noble Lord had heard the richness of this debate he might have understood the conte...
Lord Lyell | 736 c445-6 (Link to this contribution) I commend my noble friend and express my enormous gratitude for the huge patience he has shown. He h...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c446 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will of course have a look at it again.
Duke of Montrose | 736 c446-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a very far-reaching and complicated debate and I must thank all those who pa...
Lord Geddes | 736 c447 (Link to this contribution) Given the remarks of the noble Duke, it may be of assistance to the Committee if I explain where we ...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c448 (Link to this contribution) It would be helpful if the noble Lord could clarify the following matter. If in any set of circumsta...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c447-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendments 54A and 54E would add this new condition—condition D—to the definition of a Sco...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c447 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that guidance and I apologise for having spoken too early to this amendment. ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c447 (Link to this contribution) 54A: Clause 30, page 23, line 10, leave out ““or C”” and insert ““, C or D””
Lord Sassoon | 736 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in answer to the first question, there are lots of situations where employers may move peo...
Lord Kilclooney | 736 c449 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I said earlier, there is a general impression in Northern Ireland that as Scotland move...
Lord Lyell | 736 c448 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend replies on that point, perhaps I may say that I also had it in mind. Indeed, ...
Lord Maxton | 736 c450 (Link to this contribution) I am rather confused by this. After listening to the question of the noble Lord from Northern Irelan...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c450 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, which is why my amendment proposes that if they are in military rented ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c449 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, they will pay the Scottish rate of tax only if they meet the close-connection test that is...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c449-50 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point, this is a circular argument. My amendment chose to alter the provisions in th...
Lord West of Spithead | 736 c451 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the House because I have not been here for the whole debate. Indeed, I only...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c450-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the risk of repeating myself, the Government undertook to come back, having looked at t...
Lord Kilclooney | 736 c451 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I come back to the position in Northern Ireland. It is all very well to say that if there ...
Duke of Montrose | 736 c452 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is probably not my role to get the Minister off the hook in any way but we are, quite r...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c452-3 (Link to this contribution) Picking up the last point made by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, the Bill does not provide fo...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c453 (Link to this contribution) It is simply that it is a matter of principle how tests should apply to different categories of peop...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c453 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected. If my noble friend followed any Scottish business, he would realise that the Scot...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall try once more with my noble friend. Perhaps he could translate the language that h...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c452 (Link to this contribution) The words were carefully considered. I have put them on the record twice and my noble friend knows p...
Lord Sewel | 736 c452 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think we all appreciate that the Minister cannot go further today than he has gone. Howe...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c452 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure what it is that the noble Lord wants me to come forward with. There are two things her...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to touch on this briefly. It was a point alluded to by the noble and learned Lord, ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c453 (Link to this contribution) 54B: Clause 30, page 23, line 10, at end insert— ““(1A) If the activity which allows T to meet condi...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c426-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean has explained, Amendment 53A would require the...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c427 (Link to this contribution) I shall, if I may, continue and complete the two legs of this argument. If the setting of the Scotti...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c427 (Link to this contribution) That is very helpful, but on the previous point that it would be wrong to constrain the Scottish Par...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c427 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not accept the logic of that. We can debate as we go through which powers require what sort...
Lord Maxton | 736 c427 (Link to this contribution) Why change the habits of a lifetime?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c428 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is unkind. I asked a question about the position of charities and charitable contribu...
Lord Lyell | 736 c428 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend comes to an excellent conclusion, I say that he is most optimistic about this...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c428-9 (Link to this contribution) I think that is mildly critical of my noble friend. However, I accept that the procedures that are a...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c429 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 54A which goes in the revised grouping with Amendment 54E. Agai...
Baroness Verma | 736 c429 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I press the noble Lord for a little clarity? Is he speaking to Amendment 54 or to Amen...
Baroness Verma | 736 c430 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we take the amendments in order.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c430 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I just say to my noble friend that it really is impossible if we have one piece of pape...
Baroness Pitkeathley | 736 c429 (Link to this contribution) It may be of assistance to the Committee if I point out that Amendment 54A comes after Amendment 54Z...
Lord Lyell | 736 c430 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness confirm that? I have the grouping list. Perhaps somebody will be kind enough...
Lord Maxton | 736 c431 (Link to this contribution) There are, of course, people who live in Scotland, who even work in Scotland, but who are paid from ...
Duke of Montrose | 736 c430-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a paving amendment, and I shall address my remarks also to Amendment 54BA and the ...
Duke of Montrose | 736 c430 (Link to this contribution) 54ZA: Clause 30, page 23, line 10, leave out ““A””
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 736 c433-4 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, may not know that there are already people living just south of the bo...
Lord Maxton | 736 c434 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, quite properly everyone has been raising the issue of those people who live and work acros...
Duke of Montrose | 736 c434 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord remembers getting a demand for taxes from the Inland Revenue which, ...
Duke of Montrose | 736 c431-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the type of complication that we are talking about. In fact, the way the Bill is a...
Lord Lyell | 736 c432 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend and I hope that I might save some time. There was plenty that I w...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 736 c433 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Duke has raised a very important issue. I had indicated my intention to oppose C...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 736 c434 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support what has been said by and large for this amendment in the name of my noble frien...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c435 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having managed to get my amendments in a row, I should like to contribute briefly to this ...
Lord Kilclooney | 736 c434-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the people of Northern Ireland are increasingly concerned that Scotland is heading towards...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c441 (Link to this contribution) As my noble friend is dealing with these issues now, it might be in the interests of saving a little...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c441 (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to address the position of the Armed Forces, but, if my noble friend will allow, we ...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c437-8 (Link to this contribution) I am guided by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as to how one should approach the Minister. I note what...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c438-41 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson of Glen Clova, for his measured and reaso...
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova | 736 c435-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it might clearly be seen that this group raises significant issues. The Scottish rate of i...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c437 (Link to this contribution) When the noble and learned Lord says that he does not expect immediate answers, I would point out th...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, depending on the nature of the scheme, it may or may not be caught by the anti-avoidance r...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c442 (Link to this contribution) Could the Minister elaborate on that? Setting up a bogus company in order to avoid tax is clearly bl...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c442 (Link to this contribution) I will come back to that point because the question of credits is very important. I am happy to talk...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 736 c441-2 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has not addressed the interface of tax and benefit. Tax credits perhaps give rise to so...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) That is marvellous news. I do not have a house in Scotland now but I need to get up there fast and g...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) That is all very well and fine in theory, but I suspect that the answer to my question is that if th...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c478 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, by way of explanation, I felt that we had done to death compensation for the Scottish Parl...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c484 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord has not been listening to my speech. Frankly, I do not blame him—but I di...
Duke of Montrose | 736 c487 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will forgive my ignorance on this matter, but he put forward in support of ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) I would suggest that it is really very long for this amendment. The previous intervention from the n...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c502-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, left me a note saying that unfortunately he had been detaine...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c499 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend may have misunderstood me because I am not sure that it would not be out of mischief...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c534-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have considerable sympathy for this amendment. When I was in the Scottish Office, I was ...
Lord Myners | 736 c458 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, concludes, I should like to say that I agree with just about ev...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c459-60 (Link to this contribution) This amendment would delete the listing of elected Members as being caught by the Scottish tax, but ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c429 (Link to this contribution) 54: Clause 30, page 23, line 6, at end insert— ““80CA Referendum on increasing Scottish rate of inco...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 736 c432 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, what about people who are either travelling ...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c466 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 54G would indeed require the Treasury to consult interested parties, specificall...
Lord Stewartby | 736 c473 (Link to this contribution) For information, is the no-detriment principle embodied anywhere in statute within the devolution ar...
Lord Kilclooney | 736 c489 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept that point, but my question particularly related to Scotland. There are people in...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 736 c509 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened to this debate with fascination and I agree with the basic view of the nob...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 736 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) 72: Before Clause 38, insert the following new Clause— ““Convention rights and EU law: criminal appe...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not expect to be on my feet at 10 o'clock at night contributing to the debate on thi...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 736 c416-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I think that the somewhat delayed intervention...
Lord Sassoon | 736 c456 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry, but we discussed at some length the fact that the Government are working to in...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 736 c427 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know that I am beginning to sound like a broken record.
Baroness Verma | 736 c429 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord wish to move Amendment 54? It needs to be taken before Amendment 54A.
Lord Maxton | 736 c434 (Link to this contribution) Oddly enough, I am in the unfortunate position at one level but fortunate in another that about five...
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