Localism Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 12 September 2011, in the House of Lords.

Localism Bill. Lords report stage third day. New clauses (Amendment 107, 114, 119A/B/D/DA and 165) debated and agreed. New clauses (Amendments 108 and 109) debated and withdrawn. Adjourned.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

730 c505-13,524-81,587-616

Session

2010-12

Department

Department for Communities and Local Government

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Localism Bill. As amended in Committee. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 20 July 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 730 c543 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, is quite correct. As I said, I have a great deal of sympathy with t...

Earl Attlee | 730 c543-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the intention behind my noble friend’s amendment, namely that the mayor and T...

Show all contributions (152)

Baroness Kramer | 730 c544-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted that I have been able to stir up some debate on this issue and see it get s...

Lord Beecham | 730 c545 (Link to this contribution) 109A: Clause 5, page 4, line 9, at end insert— ““(2A) An order under subsection (1) or (2) may not b...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 730 c543 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was tempted to speak by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, as she was tempted to speak by ...

Baroness Kramer | 730 c543 (Link to this contribution) Without being a train wonk on this, there is only one platform that has been converted for domestic ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c547-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is not seeking to get me out of my job just y...

Lord Beecham | 730 c545-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when we discussed the provision about general competence in Committee, the noble Lord, Lor...

Lord Beecham | 730 c548 (Link to this contribution) 109B: Clause 5, page 4, line 10, leave out subsections (3) and (4)

Lord True | 730 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare an interest as leader of a London borough. I thank my noble friend the Minister ...

Earl Attlee | 730 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments addresses concerns raised about borough councils’ representation ...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c510-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the care with which my noble friend has replied to the amendments, but I...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c511 (Link to this contribution) 97: Schedule 21, page 399, line 6, at end insert— ““(1A) The Mayor must, subject to sub-paragraph (3...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c511 (Link to this contribution) 99: Schedule 21, page 399, line 39, after ““Act),”” insert— ““(ca) the member has since being appoin...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) 102: Schedule 21, page 401, line 27, after ““it,”” insert— ““(ba) its members not including at least...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c505-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has very kindly added his name to this amendment, tabled in...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has indicated, we are pleased to put our name to these ame...

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill | 730 c508 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as regards the mayoral development areas, reference is made to consultation with a number ...

Lord Campbell of Alloway | 730 c508 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment as a requisite safeguard for the flexibility of the ...

Lord True | 730 c525-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the Minister said, I have Amendment 106 in this group. I listened very carefully to wha...

Lord Beecham | 730 c526 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to trespass on to the territory of the capital but I have a good deal of sympat...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c524 (Link to this contribution) 105: Clause 210, page 188, line 27, at end insert— ““(3A) Before making or varying a delegation unde...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c524-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Ministers already have the power to delegate functions to the mayor and the London Develop...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to respond to that briefly. London Councils has made it very clear from the b...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c512 (Link to this contribution) 104: Schedule 22, page 402, line 22, at end insert— ““Local Authorities (Goods and Services) Act 197...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c513 (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord that we would not be tabling amendments if the power were already in existen...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c512 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall begin by speaking to government Amendment 107, which is also in the group. The go...

Lord Berkeley | 730 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very interesting pair of amendments. Proposed new paragraph (d) in Amendment 107...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c505 (Link to this contribution) 96: Clause 184, page 174, line 14, after ““Assembly”” insert ““or those London borough councils whos...

Lord Tope | 730 c538 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friends for their unqualified support for this amendment.

Earl Attlee | 730 c537-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 108 would abolish the London Transport Users’ Committee and transfer its functio...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should explain that our official Front Bench position is that we support the amendment, ...

Lord Spicer | 730 c541 (Link to this contribution) Is the empty platform at Waterloo, which the noble Baroness has been describing, the reason why play...

Baroness Kramer | 730 c539-41 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment follows on nicely from the previous amendment. It also illustrates the gene...

Baroness Kramer | 730 c539 (Link to this contribution) 109: After Clause 217, insert the following new Clause— ““Transport for London: Rail Authority for L...

Lord Tope | 730 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) I think that I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his more measured support for the a...

Lord Berkeley | 730 c541-3 (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting amendment. I was particularly seized of the way in which the noble Baroness, ...

Baroness Kramer | 730 c541 (Link to this contribution) Plays are not taking place on the adapted platform but it would be better to use it for a play than ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed it does. Functions may well be legislated for in the future that are borough-based and n...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) Should it be decided at some stage that a delegation of ministerial functions to a borough or a grou...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) While I await the answer to that part of the process, perhaps I may continue with the process of con...

Lord Beecham | 730 c528 (Link to this contribution) Does the process envisage delegation being made by order or is it outside that process? If it is by ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing all these points to bear on what is actually ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord asking whether this can work the other way around and that powers that are current...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) I have obviously not been clear enough. I was asking whether, if at some point in the future it were...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) I thought the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was asking me whether, in future legislation, responsibilit...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend point—I am sorry; this may be an unfair question—to a provision under which the ...

Lord Tope | 730 c531-2 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 108 would transfer the purpose and functions of the London Transport Users’ Committee, whi...

Lord Tope | 730 c530-1 (Link to this contribution) 108: After Clause 217, insert the following new Clause— ““London Transport Users’ Committee (1) On t...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c533-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Tope moved the amendment comprehensively and I only want to make two ...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 730 c532-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure the House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, for moving this amendment an...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; we are getting into a Committee-type exchange. No, it was just that, as I understand it,...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c529-30 (Link to this contribution) 107: After Clause 216, insert the following new Clause— ““Sharing of administrative etc services by ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c529 (Link to this contribution) The simple answer is no, it is not in the Bill. Amendment 105 agreed. Amendment 106 not moved. Am...

Lord Whitty | 730 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that the Government’s reservations, to which the noble Lord, Lord Tope, referred, a...

Baroness Kramer | 730 c534 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this amendment, but I feel that I must reply to the noble L...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 730 c536 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 108, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, is an interesting amendment, on which I...

Lord Pannick | 730 c615 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord accept that the Minister is undoubtedly right that the question of whether or no...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am grateful to the noble Lord. That is exactly my concern and I honestly do not think we have...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) 133: Schedule 2, page 215, leave out lines 42 to 44 134: Schedule 2, page 218, line 3, leave out “...

Lord Beecham | 730 c590 (Link to this contribution) 151A: Schedule 2, page 231, leave out lines 10 to 17

Lord Adonis | 730 c595 (Link to this contribution) Is my noble friend aware that in only one of the cities in which referendums are going to be held ne...

Lord Beecham | 730 c595 (Link to this contribution) I am certainly tempted to think so, but I will resist the temptation. In any event, the coincidence ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c595 (Link to this contribution) 152: Schedule 2, page 237, line 13, leave out from beginning to third ““the”” and insert ““At a rele...

Bishop of Birmingham | 730 c592 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I listened with interest to the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I bring before t...

Lord Adonis | 730 c592-3 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what the right reverend Prelate has just said. In my role as director of the Inst...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c593-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords for raising these matters. I have an immediate answer to the noble Lor...

Lord Beecham | 730 c594-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her assurance that parliamentary approval will be ...

Lord Beecham | 730 c597-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the ingenuity of the noble Lord’s colleagues defies description. I certainly welcome this ...

Baroness Hamwee | 730 c598 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend, who I understand has executive responsibility for grass seed in the Londo...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c596 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am giving prezzies all through this part of the Bill. I cannot believe it. It seems an u...

Lord Tope | 730 c596-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for expressing her sympathy for what we were saying so well tonight. ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c599 (Link to this contribution) 153: Schedule 2, page 237, line 20, leave out from beginning to first ““the”” in line 33 and insert—...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c599 (Link to this contribution) 155: Schedule 2, page 240, line 23, leave out from beginning to end of line 23 on page 241

Lord Tope | 730 c599 (Link to this contribution) I would be enormously grateful if the Minister could move the amendment that we have just welcomed, ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c599 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought that I had said, ““I beg to move””. Amendment 152 agreed. Amendments 153 and 1...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c598 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was fascinated by the ruminations of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on the committee syst...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c599 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps we could reconsider government Amendment 152.

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c599-601 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, noble Lords may recollect that on several occasions during the Committee stage I was moved...

Baroness Hamwee | 730 c601 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, unless the Minister is about to move the government amendments—I was wondering whether she...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c601-2 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I will move those amendments—that is, I will speak to them. I am constantly being reminded a...

Baroness Hamwee | 730 c602 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was intending to comment on only one of the noble Lord’s amendments. I agree very much w...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c602-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on this point. Your Lordships’ House should give...

Lord Beecham | 730 c603 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I warmly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on his numerous amendments, particularl...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c604-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again we are having a major discussion on the amount of regulation in the Bill and the amo...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c605-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when I tabled these amendments the purpose was to have a debate of exactly the kind which ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c606 (Link to this contribution) 160: Schedule 3, page 253, line 1, leave out from ““subsection (1A)”” to end of line 2 and insert ““...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c607 (Link to this contribution) 161: Schedule 3, page 261, line 3, leave out ““9HA,”” Amendment 161 agreed. Amendment 162 Moved b...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c607 (Link to this contribution) 162: Schedule 3, page 261, line 5, after ““9HG”” insert ““, 9MG”” Amendment 162 agreed. Amendment ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c607-8 (Link to this contribution) 165: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause— ““Timetables for changing English district co...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c608-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have already removed restrictions which applied to local authorities when they are deci...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c607 (Link to this contribution) 163: Schedule 3, page 261, line 8, leave out ““9HA or”” Amendment 163 agreed. Amendment 164 Moved...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c607 (Link to this contribution) 164: Schedule 3, page 263, line 44, leave out ““to (c)”” and insert ““and (b)”” Amendment 164 agree...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c609-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 165B. The purpose of Amendment 165A is to clarify whether ...

Lord Pannick | 730 c610-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 165A. I share the concerns that have been expressed by t...

Lord Beecham | 730 c609 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to endorse these amendments. Amendment 165 agreed. Clause 14 : Prior indications of vie...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c609 (Link to this contribution) 165A: Clause 14, page 20, line 37, at end insert— ““( ) The provisions of this section are without p...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c557 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am struggling to get a response on both matters. I understand that we are working within...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c557 (Link to this contribution) 111: Clause 9, page 16, line 13, leave out ““5C(7)”” and insert ““5C(7)(b)”” Amendment 111 agreed. ...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c557 (Link to this contribution) 113: Clause 10, page 18, line 17, at end insert— ““(5A) Subject to subsection (5B), section 18A(1) d...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c553-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, government Amendments 110, 111 and 113 accept the recommendations of the DPRRC to change t...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c553 (Link to this contribution) 110: Clause 9, page 15, line 30, leave out ““5C(7)”” and insert ““5C(7)(b)””

Lord Berkeley | 730 c556-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to support what my noble friend has said about the problem of charging for fi...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 730 c554-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to our Amendment 112 and comment on the government amendments in this grou...

Lord Beecham | 730 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 109B and 109C relate to the same provision under the Secretary of State’s powers, but in ...

Lord Beecham | 730 c550 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her reply, and I have no difficulty with the government amendments...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 109B, as the noble Lord said, would remove subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 5. These subs...

Earl Attlee | 730 c567-9 (Link to this contribution) 119A: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““CHAPTER 2A Other authorities Integrated Tr...

Earl Attlee | 730 c569-71 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 119A, I shall also speak to Amendments 119B, 119D, 119DA and 119BA, in...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c566-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, for her reply and all the noble Lords who have sp...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c564-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted to have been able to put my name to these amendments. There is no doubt tha...

Lord Beecham | 730 c562-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord McKenzie on moving the amendment, working very hard to...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 730 c562 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very impressed with the way the amendment was moved and by the universal support that...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having heard the case in favour of these amendments, I am not in the least surprised that ...

Lord Tope | 730 c560-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for moving the amendment. As he rightly said, my nob...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c558-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 114, I shall speak to the other amendments in this group. Given t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c557-8 (Link to this contribution) 114: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““CHAPTER 2A Transfer and delegation of funct...

Lord Beecham | 730 c581 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister although it is entirely unclear who would judge and on what basis whet...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c573 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of these amendments, subject to any issues that come out ...

Lord Beecham | 730 c572-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very much endorse my noble friend’s observations but, like him, I also have one or two q...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c574-6 (Link to this contribution) 119B: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Passenger Transport Executives (1) In Part...

Earl Attlee | 730 c573-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the welcome to these amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked ab...

Lord Beecham | 730 c579 (Link to this contribution) 119F: Schedule 2, page 207, line 27, at beginning insert ““Subject to receiving a proposal under sub...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c576-9 (Link to this contribution) 119D: After Clause 10, insert the following new Clause— ““Economic prosperity boards and combined au...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we debated both these amendments in Committee. We accept that most proposals for additiona...

Lord Beecham | 730 c579-80 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 119F and the other amendments in the group refer to the additional permitted governance ar...

Lord Berkeley | 730 c571-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an interesting group of amendments. The Minister explained their purpose very well...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c587-8 (Link to this contribution) 121: Schedule 2, page 211, line 27, after ““executive,”” insert— ““(iiia) by an area committee,”” ...

Lord Tope | 730 c587 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it would be remiss of me not to welcome the amendment from this side of the House, too. We...

Lord Beecham | 730 c587 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness’s acceptance of the concerns that were raised and their refle...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 730 c587 (Link to this contribution) I very much welcome what my noble friend has said. I shall refer to this a little later when we come...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c589 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure that there is a fantastic explanation for this, but I am bound to say that at th...

Lord Beecham | 730 c589 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I confess that I find it difficult to keep up with the speed of the amendments, but I will...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c588-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I gave a similar commitment in Committee to consider the amendments which aimed at removin...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c588 (Link to this contribution) 132: Schedule 2, page 215, line 39, at end insert ““or””

Baroness Hanham | 730 c587 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in Committee, I gave a commitment to consider the noble Lord’s amendments aimed at removin...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c587 (Link to this contribution) 120: Schedule 2, page 211, line 16, leave out ““9EA,””

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c615 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness but I do not think it helps us. If somebody who has done somethi...

Baroness Hamwee | 730 c614-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest to the noble Lord that the words which had initially confused me—making the deci...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c614 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand exactly that it is at the point at which the decision is made that people’s m...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c614 (Link to this contribution) Of course we are always happy to discuss matters further, but I wanted to make the Government’s posi...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c613-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and my noble friend L...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c613 (Link to this contribution) The test is that the decision-making process is key and the councillor demonstrates the ability to l...

Lord Pannick | 730 c613 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Do I understand him to be saying that any prior statem...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 730 c612-3 (Link to this contribution) Nobody will deny that this is a complex area. Previous position and predetermination can meld into a...

Lord Beecham | 730 c611-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord McKenzie—especially the second ame...

Baroness Hamwee | 730 c611 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the word that I stumbled over when I first read Clause 14(2) was ““just””. Not justice, wh...

Lord Beecham | 730 c548 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I accept that there now appears to be at least a parlia...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c513 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it seems to me that the concept of sharing back-office and administrative services is enti...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 730 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as we have heard, the government amendment requires consultation before there is any deleg...

Lord Beecham | 730 c590-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment deals with matters affecting a more controversial element of the Bill: namel...

Baroness Hanham | 730 c606 (Link to this contribution) 156: Schedule 2, page 241, line 42, leave out from ““proposals”” to end of line 43 157: Schedule 2...

Subjects

Consumers

Advisory services

Fees and charges

Elections

Greater London

Greater London Authority

Fire and rescue services

District councils

Local government

Protection

Planning