Parliamentary search - Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

728 c1762-817, 1822-54

Session

2010-12

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. As amended in Committee.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Beecham | 728 c1847 (Link to this contribution) Although I am a lawyer, I must confess that I struggle with the concept of the corporation sole. In ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1847 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will come back to the noble Lord on that point, but my understanding is that the chief c...

Show all contributions (139)

Lord Beecham | 728 c1847 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure. Somebody has to take decisions in the name of the corporation sole, and I am not sure...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1847-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that that is not the case. The point is that it is the legal personality that the corpora...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1845-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the Minister responds, I want to thank my noble friend Lord Harris, who made a powe...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1846 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is quite right that I have received a detailed and lengthy letter from the noble Lord, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1846 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure how this works. Does the chief constable of the PCC have to divide their head in...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1847 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord is saying, but that is why in other parts of the Bill we ...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1848 (Link to this contribution) You have explained it very well—

Baroness Browning | 728 c1848 (Link to this contribution) Thank you.

Lord Beecham | 728 c1848 (Link to this contribution) But I still do not understand it.

Baroness Browning | 728 c1851 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the whole point is that this is transparent. These are not things done behind closed doors...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1851-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on how she has conducted herself in this, and on her mastery o...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1850-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if in practice the PCC discharged his or her duties in respect of coming to a practical an...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1851 (Link to this contribution) What could the panel do about it?

Baroness Browning | 728 c1849-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that absolutely is not the case because we have listened carefully to what noble Lords hav...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1850 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what is now becoming clear is that political control is to be exercised over the budget by...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1848-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am not a lawyer, as he knows, but I have in a previous ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1849 (Link to this contribution) I realise that the Minister is introducing an amendment at this late hour and that this is our only ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1852 (Link to this contribution) 11: Schedule 2, page 109, line 13, leave out ““chief finance officer of a chief constable”” and inse...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1853-4 (Link to this contribution) 14: Schedule 2, page 109, line 32, after ““not)”” insert ““, but only with the consent of the releva...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1822 (Link to this contribution) 7A: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— ““Pilot schemes (1) The Secretary of State must...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1817 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the Minister’s reply, but I must confess that I have not studied the pr...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1814-6 (Link to this contribution) I will try to squeeze Amendment 7 in before the dinner break; I have on occasion been caught quite b...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1814 (Link to this contribution) 7: Schedule 1, page 107, line 24, at end insert— ““7A A police and crime commissioner must abide by ...

Lord Rosser | 728 c1816 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that the Government will accept these amendments, which as my noble friend Lady Hen...

Lord Rosser | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness confirm that under proposed new paragraph 7B(1) in Amendment 6—it states tha...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) No, PCPs will not be part of that but of course the new amendment gives them an opportunity to be pa...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1814 (Link to this contribution) As regards my amendment, I remain puzzled that the Government have not seen fit to move in this area...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the noble Lord asked me whether the deputy chief and crime commissioner could also be...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1828 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one reason I so much enjoyed 16 years of being involved in the governance of policing was ...

Baroness Stowell of Beeston | 728 c1827-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not support this amendment. I said at Second Reading that some noble Lords might want...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1827 (Link to this contribution) I confess to being in two minds, having heard my noble friend’s argument for the case, supported by ...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c1826-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would accept that: democracy is quite untidy. Liberal Democrats have often said that it ...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1826 (Link to this contribution) With great respect, my noble friend misunderstands me. It is not because of the diversity around the...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c1825-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have made it clear throughout that I want to see the model that is in the coalition’s pr...

Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington | 728 c1825 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, I have some concerns. I apologise for my colleague and...

Lord Dear | 728 c1824 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise in very much the same vein. I have this flight of fancy when I see the word ““pilot...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1823-4 (Link to this contribution) First, I take the opportunity of associating myself with the remarks just made by the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1822-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving this amendment, I will also speak to two other amendments in my name in this gro...

Lord Wasserman | 728 c1832 (Link to this contribution) There were many factors, including effective policing. I do not deny that, but the limit in the redu...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1832 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to what does the noble Lord attribute the huge reduction in crime in this country during t...

Lord Wasserman | 728 c1832 (Link to this contribution) I have seen that, and I am sure that we will discuss it on another occasion. However, there is plent...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1832 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, all the indications from preliminary figures are that police authorities are reporting tha...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1829-31 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Lord says and I am sure that that is the case. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman,...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1828 (Link to this contribution) May I assist the noble Baroness? It was the product of long examination of the operation of the poli...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1831 (Link to this contribution) I rather thought that the noble Baroness was inviting me to a contest.

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1831 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, conjures up a fascinating prospect of former Home Secretar...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1831 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that if the noble Lord were to move to Lancashire, that could be arranged. Although I thin...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1845 (Link to this contribution) I support all my noble friend’s arguments. In doing so, I have to say that I struggle with all this....

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1839-44 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first I must apologise to the House. This is an extremely complicated group of amendments ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1838 (Link to this contribution) 8: Schedule 2, page 108, line 25, leave out paragraph 2

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1833 (Link to this contribution) The core of the noble Lord’s argument against pilots is that he is cautioning us against the spatial...

Lord Wasserman | 728 c1833 (Link to this contribution) This is not about using a particular bit of legislation in particular areas and comparing them in an...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1833 (Link to this contribution) How does the noble Lord distinguish the examples that he has given from those that he said would not...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1836-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure we would all agree that this has been a very good debate, and I am grateful to a...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1834-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the Bill no longer contains the Government’s model for directly elected police and crim...

Lord Wasserman | 728 c1833-4 (Link to this contribution) This is not taking us in a circle. There are lessons that can be learnt from experience everywhere. ...

Lord Soley | 728 c1833 (Link to this contribution) In a circle.

Baroness Browning | 728 c1801-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall also speak to government Amendments 6, 60, 62 to 64, 66 to 68, 72, 110, 115, 133, ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1802-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have one amendment in the group, Amendment 228. Before I speak to it, I apologise in adv...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1808 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I preface my remarks with an apology to the Minister and to the House if, in the very limi...

Lord Rosser | 728 c1808-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am in much the same position as most, if not all, the previous speakers, having had very...

Lord Shipley | 728 c1804-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 229, but it needs to be placed in the broader context of this g...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1806-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I echo the remarks of my noble friend Lady Henig about how difficult it is to get our head...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1810 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I shall pick up some of the points just raised before giving a full...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1810 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that the person appointed will already be a member of the PCC’s staff; or that if he ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1810 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologised to the House earlier, and I appreciate that it has caused inconvenience, not ...

Lord Rosser | 728 c1810 (Link to this contribution) I certainly accept the apology. I have no intention of seeking to imply that I do not, but I am just...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1811 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will have to clarify that and come back to the noble Lord. However, an example was given...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1811 (Link to this contribution) I am always happy to be called naughty by the noble Baroness. However, I do not think that there hav...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1811-2 (Link to this contribution) That is quite true but we want to get this right. This is an important issue. I apologise that I am ...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1812-3 (Link to this contribution) In the circumstances just outlined by the noble Baroness, there might be a deputy commissioner who w...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) I have said that I will write to the noble Lord on this whole question of staff. Clearly there are d...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord going to be naughty again?

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the noble Baroness responded to my points about whether PCPs would have a role i...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) They will be able to dismiss a chief financial officer and there is nothing in the Bill that in any ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) Will PCPs be part of that process?

Baroness Browning | 728 c1801 (Link to this contribution) 5: Schedule 1, page 107, line 5, at end insert— ““( ) A police and crime commissioner must comply wi...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 728 c1790 (Link to this contribution) I was wondering whether one was allowed to take part in the debate if one was not a former chief con...

Viscount Brookeborough | 728 c1790-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment, or at least the basis of it. My experience is from the Northern I...

Lord Wasserman | 728 c1791-3 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am a great believer in non-executive directors. Having served as a non-executive director on...

Lord Blair of Boughton | 728 c1793 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, for adding to his collection of commissioners ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c1793-4 (Link to this contribution) I wish to add a word or two. I heard very much what the noble Lord said, and I very much sympathise ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1794-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an interesting and, I believe, an important debate. My noble friend Lord Har...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c1795-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we all recognise the importance of quality of governance for any new arrangements to overs...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1797-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am enormously grateful to those noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate, w...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1781-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was very interested in the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. She will kn...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c1781 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Parliament has indeed produced a lot of Acts and, in my view, one of the problems is repea...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1782 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful for all contributions to this debate and particularly to the noble Lord...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1779-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and I certainly look forward to hearing what he has to say...

Lord Laming | 728 c1780-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for my enthusiasm. I did not want to steal the Minister’s thunder. On the contrary, I wa...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c1781 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to strike a slightly different note on this matter but I should like to ask the...

Lord Laming | 728 c1781 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that many, many crime Bills have been taken through this Hou...

Lord Laming | 728 c1779 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I explain? It is unusual for a member of the Cross Benches to move a government amendm...

Lord Laming | 728 c1779 (Link to this contribution) All right.

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c1788-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was going to go back to the Roman Empire. With all this talk about Roman emperors, I won...

Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington | 728 c1788 (Link to this contribution) Certainly not. The two most successful Home Secretaries that I know of in history is the one who is ...

Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington | 728 c1786-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. Far be it from me to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Howard of...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1788 (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind the rather surprising assertion of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who is not now in h...

Lord De Mauley | 728 c1786 (Link to this contribution) We are on Report.

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1786 (Link to this contribution) There were many other much longer meetings. The noble Lord talked about the characteristics of Roman...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1785 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harris, on the sense of realism which infused h...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1785 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I remember attending the shortest ministerial meeting I had with the noble Lord when we we...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1782 (Link to this contribution) 3: Clause 1, page 2, line 24, at end insert— ““( ) Each police and crime commissioner shall appoint ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1783-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 20. There has been considerable concern about the central ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1769-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this debate. I am particularly gratefu...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1771 (Link to this contribution) 1A: Clause 1, page 2, line 1, at end insert— ““( ) Police and crime commissioners must exercise thei...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 728 c1771 (Link to this contribution) I hope my noble friend will excuse me if I say that he has never been a particularly modest man, so ...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c1771 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the record, I think the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, would agree that I never ev...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 728 c1770-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful for the customarily courteous spirit in which this debate has been cond...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1773 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Is it not the case that while his additional proposals were d...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1772 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 1A and the two other amendments in this group come to an important matter that g...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1772-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, may I take this early opportunity to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, in her abs...

Lord Condon | 728 c1774 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has served us well by this amendment. The arguments remain finely balance...

Lord Dear | 728 c1774-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not speak in favour of this amendment. We are probably dancing on the head of a pin. ...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1774 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and the noble Lord who has just spoken both infer that the pu...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1776 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we should not get too carried away over what this memorandum will do. My noble friend Lord...

Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington | 728 c1777 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Condon, I have wavered over whether this measure should be inclu...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1778 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that the noble Baroness is saying that we should return to this at Third Reading...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1778-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris. I am not one of the business managers in this House. I...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1779 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her very constructive response and for her work in...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1779 (Link to this contribution) 2: Clause 1, page 2, line 24, at end insert— ““(h) the exercise of duties in relation to the safegua...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1762 (Link to this contribution) That the Report be now received.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1763 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there will be joy all over the land at the prospect of Members of your Lordships' House st...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1762-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if, at the beginning, I apologise for the fact ...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 728 c1768-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have nothing but respect for the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and for the certain merit tha...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c1769 (Link to this contribution) If the Minister wishes to read other documentation prior to the next stage of this legislation I cou...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 728 c1763-4 (Link to this contribution) 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, at end insert— ““( ) Each police area shall have a directly elected po...

Lord Beecham | 728 c1766-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord advances his argument with his customary eloquence, seductiveness and wit. ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c1767-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure that we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for allowing us to hav...

Lord Wasserman | 728 c1831-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as a former professional social scientist I welcome the enthusiasm in this House for pilot...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c1813 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness sits down again—

Lord Condon | 728 c1789-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and supported by the noble Lord,...

Lord Shipley | 728 c1775-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall make two comments on quite a fundamental matter. First, I am clear that there need...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c1816-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I recognise the concern for good governance in the broadest sense that lies behind these n...

Lord Howard of Lympne | 728 c1773-4 (Link to this contribution) Convenient though that rewriting of history is for the noble Lord’s arguments, it is very far from t...

Baroness Browning | 728 c1777-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful for the contributions made to the debate. The amendments tabled by the ...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 728 c1764-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for the announcement that she has just made. The revel...

Subjects

Disciplinary proceedings

Children

Accountability

Administration

Finance

Dismissal

Pilot schemes

Protection

Police

Public appointments

Police authorities