Energy Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 24 January 2011, in the House of Lords.

Energy Bill (HL). Lords committee stage (third day). Amendments considered. Clauses 33-39 agreed. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

724 c115-72GC

Session

2010-12

Department

Department of Energy and Climate Change
Committee of the Whole House (HL)

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Energy Bill (HL). Explanatory notes also published (HL Bill 33-EN).
Wednesday, 8 December 2010
Bills
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lord Marland | 724 c159GC (Link to this contribution) The point that I am making is that the landlord, if he has a tenant who will not agree, will continu...

Lord Marland | 724 c150GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should clarify that the authorities in Scotland will and can do whatever they want with th...

Show all contributions (147)

Baroness Maddock | 724 c145-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 20P, perhaps I shall half come to the rescue of the previous discussio...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c138-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 20Y and 21C in this group. These amendments concern the timing of t...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 20MB withdrawn. Amendment 20N Moved by

Baroness Northover | 724 c136-7GC (Link to this contribution) I will resist the temptation to speculate about areas that I may be less than well briefed on. If th...

Baroness Northover | 724 c134-5GC (Link to this contribution) I hear what my noble friend says. We will debate the review in more detail. My noble friend Lord Mar...

Lord Teverson | 724 c131-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome this amendment from my noble friend. It is important that tenants are actually m...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c116GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, having had recent experience of the phenomenon to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has d...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 724 c115GC (Link to this contribution) If Amendment 20A is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 20B by reason of pre-emption.

Baroness Parminter | 724 c121GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lady Maddock in her amendments, which seek to extend the reach of the Bill...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c170GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I was only speaking to that amendment, I cannot withdraw it. However, I can withdraw Am...

Lord Marland | 724 c167-8GC (Link to this contribution) I think I have answered that point, and I answered it on the previous batch of amendments. There is ...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c171GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I certainly do not want to delay the Committee beyond its natural span, but perhaps I coul...

Lord Grantchester | 724 c171-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for seeking that extra clarification. In this clause we are assuming that...

Lord Teverson | 724 c172GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I admit that I do not understand this amendment. I do not understand what it does. I thank...

Baroness Northover | 724 c172GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their amendments to Clause 39. Amendment 20AAA would...

Lord Grantchester | 724 c172GC (Link to this contribution) I am of course grateful for the questions on this matter, especially from the noble Lord, Lord Tever...

Baroness Northover | 724 c172GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm.

Lord Colwyn | 724 c172GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned.

Lord Grantchester | 724 c170-1GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for the delay; the groupings are a little confusing. I am reminded during these debates ...

Lord Grantchester | 724 c170GC (Link to this contribution) 20AAA: Clause 39, page 25, line 16, at end insert— ““( ) Provision falling within subsection (1) may...

Lord Marland | 724 c170GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock for putting forward the amendment. Obviously it has co...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c169-70GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not the slightest doubt but that the Government will apply a cold and analytical ey...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c168-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I get the impression that we are coming up against the problem of balance that I referred ...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c168GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 20AA and 20AB. I will be very brief because I believe I h...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c168GC (Link to this contribution) 20Z: Clause 39, page 25, line 7, leave out ““may”” and insert ““shall””

Lord Best | 724 c166-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will address the point that the Government are very keen for there to be no barrier to t...

Lord Marland | 724 c166GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, and for the support expressed by my noble friend La...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c167GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister's comments, but I am not sure that he answered any of the points that...

Lord Colwyn | 724 c164GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder if the noble Lord could clarify for the Committee which amendment he is speaking to, becaus...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c165-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is attached to the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, has just spoken....

Lord Best | 724 c164-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am speaking to the two amendments grouped with Amendment 20TA; namely, Amendments 21ZA and 21ZB. F...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c163GC (Link to this contribution) 20TA: Clause 37, page 23, line 36, at end insert— ““( ) The Secretary of State must make regulations...

Lord Best | 724 c163-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the new clauses I have proposed to come before Clause 40 fit terribly well at thi...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c163GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Committee. This is a probing amendment to look at the powers of local authorities regard...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c162GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 20TA, an amendment to Clause 37, has not yet been moved.

Lord Colwyn | 724 c162GC (Link to this contribution) I thought it was not moved. According to my list, it should have been debated in the previous group....

Baroness Maddock | 724 c162GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the offer of further discussions might be helpful, because I think that, by using some of ...

Lord Colwyn | 724 c162GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that Amendments 20TA to 20Y are not moved. The question is that Clause 37 stand part of...

Lord Marland | 724 c161GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises several questions. It is not for this Committee to prescribe to local auth...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c161GC (Link to this contribution) I think that the Minister has misunderstood the point in my amendment, which refers not to energy pe...

Lord Marland | 724 c162GC (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Baroness allow me to reply? What I am saying is that we must not prescribe regulatio...

Lord Marland | 724 c161GC (Link to this contribution) With all due respect, I think that I answered that. I said that it is very unlikely that there will ...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c161-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to other noble Lords who have taken part i...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c160-1GC (Link to this contribution) The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, relates to issues raised by amendments that we discuss...

Lord Deben | 724 c160GC (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister not agree that there is a difficult issue here? We have to do things in this unco...

Lord Marland | 724 c160GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord. The situation is not ideal, but we have to live in a regulator...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c159GC (Link to this contribution) That is what I hoped the Minister would say. Can he then explain to me what happens in relation to t...

Lord Marland | 724 c159GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness hits on an important point. It is that awkward period when the landlord is under ...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c159GC (Link to this contribution) It is my understanding that you cannot just throw tenants out nowadays; it is a rather more complica...

Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c159GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend has a serious point. If the tenant seriously objects, it is completely wro...

Lord Marland | 724 c159GC (Link to this contribution) The first tenant has to agree to the Green Deal. If he or she does not, it will not be installed. If...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c158-9GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, decides what to do with her amendment, perhaps I may follow...

Earl Cathcart | 724 c156-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have not spoken on this chapter before but I welcome provisions in the private rented se...

Lord Marland | 724 c157-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for these amendments, which aim to set a minimum energy efficiency standard ...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c153-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendments 20RA and 20YA, which, in the new groupings list, are in this group. ...

Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c155-6GC (Link to this contribution) I feel compelled to intervene because I am not quite sure whether we are going in the direction in w...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c151-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 20S to 20X. What I am trying to do here is to hurry up lo...

Viscount Ullswater | 724 c153GC (Link to this contribution) I must advise your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to I would not be able to call Amendme...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c151GC (Link to this contribution) 20R: Clause 37, page 23, line 26, leave out ““may make regulations”” and insert ““shall make regulat...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c147-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 20Q in this group. I allowed it to be grouped with Amendments 2...

Lord Marland | 724 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for his remarks and to others for the re...

Lord Deben | 724 c148-9GC (Link to this contribution) I did try to get in rather earlier, but I am now able to say that I would be very unhappy if the Min...

Duke of Montrose | 724 c150GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, although I have not participated greatly, I have attended quite a few of the Committee’s m...

Duke of Montrose | 724 c150GC (Link to this contribution) Well, I have said that it is highly efficient to consider these matters at the same time.

Baroness Noakes | 724 c150GC (Link to this contribution) Boring.

Baroness Maddock | 724 c150-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. In a minute, I will be moving further amendments that ...

Viscount Ullswater | 724 c151GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has been suggested that this may be a good time for the Committee to adjourn for 10 min...

Lord Marland | 724 c144GC (Link to this contribution) I slightly object to it being called a gung-ho approach. It is a very measured approach that has tak...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c144GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had an interesting debate, with differing views on the most important factors, inc...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c145GC (Link to this contribution) 20P: Clause 37, page 23, line 18, leave out subsection (1)

Baroness Noakes | 724 c145GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that. I am sure that the Government will keep this under review. The issu...

Lord Marland | 724 c144-5GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify one point for the noble Baroness. There are fundamental differences between re...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c144GC (Link to this contribution) I will withdraw the word ““gung-ho””, but perhaps not the sentiment. The Minister seems to be rushin...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c146-7GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 20PA, which is in my name, is in some ways not dissimilar to the amendment in the name of ...

Lord Deben | 724 c146GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would like to suggest—

Viscount Ullswater | 724 c146GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must advise your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to I will not be able to cal...

Lord Marland | 724 c143-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot agree with my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding. I deeply believe that Go...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c142-3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add a word or two to the debate because I put my name on the amendment. We spent a goo...

Lord Marland | 724 c141-2GC (Link to this contribution) The answer is quite simple. We have to put in a prescribed date or it is unfair on those who have to...

Lord Teverson | 724 c143GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could respond to that because it is exactly not what I am saying. I am surprised that we h...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c140GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was about to make the same speech. But as the Minister is likely to listen to a noble Lo...

Lord Teverson | 724 c139-40GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very concerned about the amendment. This is one of the risks of the critical path tha...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c141GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has clarified a number of interesting points but we are talking about dates here and ...

Lord Marland | 724 c140-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to correct the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, by saying that of course I...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c138GC (Link to this contribution) 20N: Clause 36, page 23, line 15, leave out ““2014”” and insert ““2015””

Baroness Northover | 724 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her straightforward amendment and acknowledge her concern about the f...

Lord Teverson | 724 c138GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for having asked the Minister a not particularly helpful question earlier. I want only t...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c137GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a fairly straightforward amendment; I like to be straightforward to help the Minis...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c137GC (Link to this contribution) 20MB: Clause 36, page 23, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) a full assessment of the burden placed on lo...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c137GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am happy to withdraw the amendment. I think that we have opened up a number of interesti...

Lord Teverson | 724 c134GC (Link to this contribution) I ask the Minister what happens when we have a change of tenancy and the golden rule is met by the f...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c134GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify the aspect of the review that I was probing. While the consent of the individu...

Baroness Northover | 724 c133-4GC (Link to this contribution) I understand what the noble Baroness is saying. These are all areas which the department is looking ...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c135GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister is doing her best in what we all appreciate is a very difficult area. We all understand...

Lord Dixon-Smith | 724 c135GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I feel provoked to intervene. We are making the subject far too complex. I thought that I ...

Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c136GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to ask the noble Baroness one further question. What will happen in the short tenancy h...

Baroness Northover | 724 c136GC (Link to this contribution) Before I get dispatched back to DfID, justice, and all the other areas I am supposed to be covering,...

Lord Deben | 724 c135-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think we ought to take it quite as simply as that. One of the things we learned f...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c131GC (Link to this contribution) 20M: Clause 36, page 23, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) a consideration of the willingness of tenants...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c131GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are sticking for the time being with Clause 36(5). I have another suggestion to make. T...

Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c132GC (Link to this contribution) Short-term tenants who are in poor-quality houses and move on regularly are not normally the kind of...

Lord Teverson | 724 c132GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a landlord—very much in the line that the noble Lord, Lord Best, described of one pro...

Lord Best | 724 c132GC (Link to this contribution) I shall just add another statistical piece of information. Some 40 per cent of tenants move within a...

Lord Davies of Oldham | 724 c132-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are getting to the complexities and challenges of the Green Deal. We had early indicati...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c133GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can clarify the golden rule. The issue is that tenants have different time horizons so a t...

Baroness Northover | 724 c133GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is vital as a thread running through this debate that we ensure that this deal has as w...

Lord Marland | 724 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I will deal first with the point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes. There is a limit to how much o...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. Possibly my noble friend has said that this might be looked at, but the point is not spe...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c130GC (Link to this contribution) The purpose of my Amendment 20KA is to probe whether additional items should be in the review other ...

Lord Marland | 724 c130GC (Link to this contribution) Could you repeat that?

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c131GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 20KA withdrawn. Amendment 20L...

Lord Marland | 724 c131GC (Link to this contribution) I am getting a lot of notes, but the short answer is that the review can consider other issues. I ho...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c130-1GC (Link to this contribution) I hate to confuse the Minister and I apologise if my earlier comment was not clear, but all that I s...

Lord Marland | 724 c130GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I understand the question, so it may be the second question that I do not understand. I...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 724 c115GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as ...

Lord Marland | 724 c116GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome back the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and hope that she is well. I ho...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c115GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, briefly, Amendments 20A and 20C, which stand in my name in this group, come directly from ...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c115GC (Link to this contribution) 20A: Clause 33, page 21, line 16, at end insert— ““(za) orders and regulations under section 1 or 2,...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c115GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also put down amendments—Amendments 20B and 20D—which are differently worded but would h...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c116GC (Link to this contribution) With the proviso that I am a noble, rather than an ““honourable””, Member, I am grateful to the Mini...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c116-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have discussed before the issue of skills and whether there will be enough people with ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 724 c116GC (Link to this contribution) I advise Members that there is a mistake in the amendment as it appears in the supplementary Marshal...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c116GC (Link to this contribution) 20DZA: Clause 33, page 21, line 25, at end insert— ““( ) Before making regulations or an order under...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c118-21GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to move Amendment 20E, as set out in the Marshalled List, and I will speak to Amendments 20F,...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c118GC (Link to this contribution) 20E: Clause 35, page 22, line 8, leave out ““let””

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c118GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 20DZA withdrawn. Clause 33 agreed. After Clause ...

Baroness Northover | 724 c118GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Green Deal will require a trained workforce to install measures in a safe, competent a...

Lord Marland | 724 c121-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock, for moving Amendment 20E. She comes with a ...

Lord Grantchester | 724 c121GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, for bringing forward her amendments. I echo her o...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c123-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in reading the Bill, and in getting the substantial number of representations that I suspe...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c122-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his pretty positive reply. Of course, that is partly dep...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c124GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, because I think they sum ...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c125GC (Link to this contribution) 20KA: Clause 36, page 23, line 4, after ““must”” insert ““, in particular,””

Lord Marland | 724 c124-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is wonderful to hear so much green co-operation bouncing backwards and forwards. We app...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c126GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have Amendment 20L grouped with this. Unfortunately I did not see the grouping before I ...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c125-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is interesting, looking at Clause 36 about the review, that it describes how the review...

Lord Marland | 724 c129GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments covers a wide range of issues. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, ri...

Baroness Noakes | 724 c129-30GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, decides what to do with her amendment, I will say t...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c130GC (Link to this contribution) While the Minister seeks inspiration on that point, perhaps I may put to him that my comments and my...

Lord Jenkin of Roding | 724 c126-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as my noble friend Baroness Noakes has indicated, Amendment 20MA in my name follows a reco...

Baroness Maddock | 724 c127GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, further to my noble friend’s comment about the record of the private rented sector in this...

Lord Deben | 724 c127-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I just hope that we do not underestimate the big role that the British Property Federation...

Baroness Smith of Basildon | 724 c128GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is exceptionally good advice. It will be crucial that information is available for te...

Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 724 c128GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before we leave this issue, I am not quite clear on the extent of the penetration of the m...

Lord Best | 724 c128-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may add a little factual information on the profile of the private rented sector...

Subjects

Costs

Conservation

Apprentices

Enforcement

Energy

Fuel poverty

Landlords

Local government

Powers

Private rented housing

Standards

Training

Repairs and maintenance

Tenants

Terminology

Reviews

Tied housing

Green deal scheme

Statutory instruments

Legislation

Energy Bill (HL) 2010-12

Link

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