European Union (Amendment) Bill. Committee stage fifth day. Amendment negatived on division (133 votes to 331).
European Union (Amendment) Bill
Debate on bills
and
Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 20 February 2008,
in the House of Commons.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
472 c431-84 
Session
2007-08
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
European Union (Amendment) Bill. (Explanatory note Bill 48-EN published).
Monday, 17 December 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Monday, 17 December 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Desmond Swayne | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend will recall that when the then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Blackburn...
Mark Francois | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend partly anticipates me, and he is entirely right to remind the Committee of that point...
Show all contributions (168)
Mark Lazarowicz | 472 c435 (Link to this contribution)
May I pursue this interesting analogy with the Presidents of the United States and Russia? The Presi...
Mark Francois | 472 c435 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I am glad to hear that he was not suggesting wh...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
I have great respect for my hon. Friend, although I know we do not agree. He was suggesting to his c...
Mark Francois | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his comment. I have two things to say in response. Firs...
Desmond Swayne | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mark Lazarowicz | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Francois | 472 c434 (Link to this contribution)
I would like to make a little progress, because I promised to try to speak briefly. I shall take two...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c431-2 (Link to this contribution)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 253, line 12, after 'excludi...
Mark Francois | 472 c433 (Link to this contribution)
I begin by saying that I hear the entreaty made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Je...
Mark Francois | 472 c431 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move amendment No. 258, page 1, line 12, after 'excluding', insert—
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c433 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mark Francois | 472 c433-4 (Link to this contribution)
Let me finish my sentence, then I will be delighted to give way. So because that article in the trea...
Rob Marris | 472 c464-5 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry that I did not make myself clear, although I stressed that I wanted the UK to remain a pe...
Mark Harper | 472 c464 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he kept saying that the fact that Britain has a population o...
Mark Harper | 472 c464 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Chairman for that intervention. My hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh was not arguing t...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 472 c467-9 (Link to this contribution)
Indeed. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, who set out clearly and lucidly the reason for another...
Mark Lazarowicz | 472 c467 (Link to this contribution)
The situation is even more complex when the Foreign Minister of the country holding the presidency i...
Lord Davies of Stamford | 472 c466-7 (Link to this contribution)
A connoisseur of conspiracy theories would have a lovely time if they attended the debates on Europe...
Mark Harper | 472 c465-6 (Link to this contribution)
In a way, that seems to be the same argument as the one advanced by my right hon. Friend the Member ...
Mark Harper | 472 c463-4 (Link to this contribution)
If what the hon. Gentleman says is true, then, contrary to what the Chairman of the Select Committee...
Mike Gapes | 472 c464 (Link to this contribution)
If the hon. Gentleman checks the record, he will see that I did not use the word ““transformation””....
Lord Deben | 472 c471 (Link to this contribution)
In one moment.
Is Britain so uncourageous that it thinks that someone else will always win? The Fre...
Mark Pritchard | 472 c470 (Link to this contribution)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Lord Deben | 472 c471 (Link to this contribution)
If they do, it is partly because their Parliament supports the European Union and makes it work, ins...
Peter Bone | 472 c471 (Link to this contribution)
And they do.
Lord Deben | 472 c471 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and he underlines the degree to which the treaty goes out of...
Rob Marris | 472 c471 (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted that the right hon. Gentleman has given way. Earlier in the debate, the hon. Member f...
Denis MacShane | 472 c471 (Link to this contribution)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Deben | 472 c469 (Link to this contribution)
Anybody who considers these matters in the House should, as I do, ask what is in Britain's interests...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c469 (Link to this contribution)
The slippery slope.
Lord Deben | 472 c469-70 (Link to this contribution)
We hear about the slippery slope and so on, but we should simply ask what is before us. [Interruptio...
John Redwood | 472 c475-6 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you for those wise words, Mrs. Heal.
Part of the argument on this group of amendments is whet...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c475 (Link to this contribution)
That is not a point of order for the Chair. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman's comments will ...
Lord Deben | 472 c475 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Is this not a suitable moment for the Government to announce that th...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c475 (Link to this contribution)
Order. We must return to the debate. I call Mr. Redwood.
William Cash | 472 c474-5 (Link to this contribution)
Does my right hon. Friend agree, as I suspect he would, that there is something utterly pathetic abo...
John Redwood | 472 c474 (Link to this contribution)
It is now quite obvious that we will not be able to debate the second set of amendments, which is wh...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c473 (Link to this contribution)
We know that we are not going to get on to the next set of amendments. Let me remind those who were ...
James Clappison | 472 c473 (Link to this contribution)
I am tempted to say that I went home to bed after hearing assurances such as that one, but the probl...
James Clappison | 472 c472-3 (Link to this contribution)
It is a great pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer). ...
Jim Murphy | 472 c477-8 (Link to this contribution)
To turn to the substance of the business before us this evening, the fact is that the position of pr...
John Redwood | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
That is, of course, what the treaty says. I said something different. I said that where the UK thoug...
Jim Murphy | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
Of course. I will take two brief interventions, then carry on.
William Cash | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister will know that under the provisions that are supposedly before us now, but which we wil...
Jim Murphy | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
In the interests of time, I will give way to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) and then respond t...
William Cash | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?
Jim Murphy | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
In a little moment.
However, to argue as the right hon. Gentleman did that when that happens, we sh...
John Redwood | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
William Cash | 472 c477 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?
Jim Murphy | 472 c476 (Link to this contribution)
I am delighted to have the opportunity again to respond to a debate. We have heard a number of inter...
Jim Murphy | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
Amendments Nos. 156 and 254 are designed to prevent the EU from concluding international agreements ...
Mark Pritchard | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Although international women's day is a very important subject indee...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
Further to that point of order, Mrs. Heal. May I invite you to invite the Minister to make a stateme...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
That is not a point of order for the Chair, but a matter of debate. I have already said earlier this...
Jim Murphy | 472 c478 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, but I must make some progress.
The full-time president will have an external representa...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c478 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister give way?
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
May I remind right hon. and hon. Members that the occupant of the Chair is bound by motions that hav...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. It was clear that the Prime Minister promised line-by-line scrutiny ...
Jim Murphy | 472 c478-9 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman knows that that is a matter for the usual channels, in the context of the p...
Lord Deben | 472 c478 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister accept from me that it is essential that he give the House an undertaking that a d...
Mark Francois | 472 c481 (Link to this contribution)
Thank you, Mrs. Heal. The Liberal Democrats now have 20 seconds. Their spokesman said that essential...
Gerald Howarth | 472 c484-5 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think that this is by common consent one of the most im...
Speaker | 472 c485 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I need to hear the point of order. Mr. Gerald Howarth, could you conclude?
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c479 (Link to this contribution)
Order. That is not a point of order for the Chair. The hon. Gentleman is trying very hard, but I am ...
Mark Francois | 472 c480 (Link to this contribution)
We argued from the outset that we needed two days to debate defence and foreign policy, and the Gove...
Jim Murphy | 472 c479-80 (Link to this contribution)
As I was saying, amendments Nos. 156 and 254 would prevent the EU from concluding international agre...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c480 (Link to this contribution)
Order. Perhaps we could all calm down a little and get on with concluding the debate.
Sion Simon | 472 c480 (Link to this contribution)
On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Is it in order for Conservative Members to make consecutive spurious...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c480 (Link to this contribution)
Order. The Committee must come to order.
Mark Francois | 472 c480 (Link to this contribution)
There were a number of references in the Foreign Affairs Committee report, but the key one was this:...
Speaker | 472 c485 (Link to this contribution)
Order. [Interruption.] Will the House come to order?
I think the main point that the hon. Gentleman...
Gerald Howarth | 472 c485 (Link to this contribution)
We need to know what we can do in order to demonstrate to the people of this country that the Prime ...
Mark Francois | 472 c436-7 (Link to this contribution)
I should like to get on to amendment No. 264, but I will give way in a moment.
Amendment No. 264 re...
Ed Davey | 472 c436 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Francois | 472 c436 (Link to this contribution)
If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I have answered his point. The key word—the difference—is ““s...
Mark Francois | 472 c436 (Link to this contribution)
I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The key word in the treaty is ““shall””. When a common position ...
Doug Henderson | 472 c436 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman's predecessor was my pair, in the days when we had such things in Parliament.
Th...
Doug Henderson | 472 c436 (Link to this contribution)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mark Francois | 472 c436 (Link to this contribution)
In a moment.
It should be totally unacceptable for any British Government to accept any treaty impo...
Mark Francois | 472 c435-6 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend's point is well made. He mentioned a common position. If it is true that Tony B...
Mark Francois | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
I am spoilt for choice. I will give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash), the...
Mark Francois | 472 c437 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend, a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, brings considerable expertise to these ...
James Clappison | 472 c437 (Link to this contribution)
Is not the assumption of the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) wrong when he says th...
Mark Francois | 472 c437 (Link to this contribution)
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to what I was saying, but I have already argu...
Mark Francois | 472 c437 (Link to this contribution)
Do not ask a question if you do not like the answer!
Mark Francois | 472 c437 (Link to this contribution)
I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison).
Mike Gapes | 472 c442 (Link to this contribution)
I will come to the external action service issues in a moment. On the specific point, I refer the ho...
Mike Gapes | 472 c442 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with my hon. Friend. The need to develop that coherence is also in the interests of the larg...
Mark Pritchard | 472 c442 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman mentions Africa. Will he condemn the fact that of 53 African nations, 23 no longe...
Mark Lazarowicz | 472 c441 (Link to this contribution)
Unlike me, some Members of this House are somewhat Francophobic. They are opposing a proposal that g...
Mike Gapes | 472 c441 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman has missed the point. Let me give an example. The German presidency decided to gi...
Mark Harper | 472 c441 (Link to this contribution)
In a way, the hon. Gentleman is making the point for my hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Fra...
Mike Gapes | 472 c440-1 (Link to this contribution)
I was unable to take part in the earlier debate because I was chairing a Select Committee meeting an...
Mark Francois | 472 c440 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. A key part of the argument is the question ““What is the dire...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c440 (Link to this contribution)
In fact, the intervention by the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes) has helped my hon. Frien...
Mark Francois | 472 c440 (Link to this contribution)
I will certainly give way to a former leader of my party.
Ed Davey | 472 c446 (Link to this contribution)
—although not the right hon. Gentleman.
Lord Deben | 472 c446 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman should be a bit careful about the issue. The House is elected by the British peop...
John Redwood | 472 c445 (Link to this contribution)
A long time ago, the British people were asked to vote on whether they wanted a Common Market, and t...
Ed Davey | 472 c445 (Link to this contribution)
I believe that the British people should have a referendum on the whole European Union to encompass ...
Mike Gapes | 472 c443 (Link to this contribution)
For the hon. Gentleman's information, the presidency will not be a permanent post but an agreed post...
Peter Bone | 472 c443 (Link to this contribution)
I am listening with interest to the hon. Gentleman's powerful argument for more centralisation of th...
John Redwood | 472 c443 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Chairman of the Select Committee agree that he is arguing that a common European position i...
Lord Deben | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
No, it would not.
Mark Francois | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
I am not claiming that it would lead to the abandonment of our seat, but I am saying that it could l...
Mark Francois | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
Well, they argued vehemently against that change and then, as with so much else in this treaty, they...
Mark Pritchard | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
I am not a conspiracy theorist and I want to be fair to the Government, but might not an unintended ...
William Cash | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that when a Foreign Minister walks like a duck, he talks like a duck and h...
Lord Deben | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
They got it wrong!
Mark Francois | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend may know that there have been one or two occasions in this debate when the same...
Lord Deben | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
I just ask my hon. Friend how can it possibly cause a difficulty if a spokesman for a common positio...
Mark Francois | 472 c438 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my hon. Friend for that observation. Everyone knows that he reads these documents in very co...
Mark Francois | 472 c439 (Link to this contribution)
I will give way in a moment. Clearly the Government cannot sweep this under the carpet. I repeat: if...
Mike Gapes | 472 c439 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I can deal with this canard once and for all. Our Committee went into the issue in some deta...
Mark Francois | 472 c439-40 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Chairman of the Committee for that. I also thank him for the Committee's report, which s...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c440 (Link to this contribution)
Will my hon. Friend give way?
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c439 (Link to this contribution)
As the Government's speeches and amendments in the Convention are hard to come by, my hon. Friend ma...
Mark Francois | 472 c439 (Link to this contribution)
I shall give way to my right hon. Friend first, then to the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committe...
Mark Francois | 472 c439 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. Friend, who also serves on the European Scrutiny Committee, makes a valid point. It ha...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c456-9 (Link to this contribution)
I shall be as brief as I can, because I hope that the Committee gets on to the other groups of amend...
Peter Bone | 472 c459 (Link to this contribution)
It is slightly worse than that, is it not? A Government may have agreed a common position on a forei...
John Redwood | 472 c454 (Link to this contribution)
The point about membership of the Security Council is that it is held by the major military powers o...
Rob Marris | 472 c454-5 (Link to this contribution)
I do not want to get diverted too far down that path, but the right hon. Gentleman is not quite righ...
Mike Gapes | 472 c455 (Link to this contribution)
May I add a point to my hon. Friend's argument? There have been occasions over recent years on which...
Rob Marris | 472 c455 (Link to this contribution)
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. That issue is to do with expertise, but also many hands make l...
Rob Marris | 472 c453 (Link to this contribution)
Strictly speaking, the high representative would have to do that. In practice, he or she would make ...
Rob Marris | 472 c453-4 (Link to this contribution)
The president of the European Council will not be representing that policy—that is the point that I ...
Mark Harper | 472 c463 (Link to this contribution)
I shall try to be relatively brief, as I know that one or two Members still want to speak and that m...
Doug Henderson | 472 c463 (Link to this contribution)
The hon. Gentleman's point is without substance. There is no way that the French, the Germans or the...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c460-1 (Link to this contribution)
That was a good answer from my hon. Friend. It is true that a new provision in the texts extends qua...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c460 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) will probably try to find the exact point in ...
James Clappison | 472 c460 (Link to this contribution)
The words ““where otherwise provided”” refer to article 31(2). If the hon. Member for Wolverhampton,...
Rob Marris | 472 c460 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman seems to be reading the provisions in a very different way from the way in ...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c460 (Link to this contribution)
Characteristically, the hon. Gentleman did not complete the quotation, which continues"““except wher...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c459 (Link to this contribution)
I hesitate to advertise some of the demons whose existence some of our colleagues refuse to accept, ...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c460 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend rightly mentions a new provision in the treaty which extends qualified majority votin...
Anne Main | 472 c446 (Link to this contribution)
I am pleased to hear views being expressed by the Liberal Democrats in the House. When my local pape...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c446 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I remind hon. Members that a debate on whether to have a referendum will take place later, in...
Ed Davey | 472 c446 (Link to this contribution)
I am certainly happy to abide by your ruling, Mrs. Heal, and to talk to the hon. Lady outside. I kno...
Mark Francois | 472 c447 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment No. 156 was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash), and I am sure that h...
Ed Davey | 472 c447 (Link to this contribution)
If I made a mistake, I apologise to the hon. Member for Rayleigh, but I say to the hon. Member for S...
Doug Henderson | 472 c447 (Link to this contribution)
I refer to amendments Nos. 1 and 258. I am slightly unfamiliar with Committee stage discussions thes...
Doug Henderson | 472 c448 (Link to this contribution)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If there is a common position, the United Kingdom or any other o...
Ed Davey | 472 c446 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman's position on the matter has been consistent; I do not disagree that he fou...
John Redwood | 472 c448 (Link to this contribution)
Why do we need the complication of a possible right of audience at the United Nations for a represen...
William Cash | 472 c451 (Link to this contribution)
My right hon. and learned Friend referred to the Maastricht treaty and to the meanings that people g...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c451 (Link to this contribution)
I knew more about the Maastricht treaty than most of the Maastricht—
Doug Henderson | 472 c448-9 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman and I go back a long way on these matters. He knows about some of the issue...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c449-51 (Link to this contribution)
The amendments bear on the common foreign and security policy, which I have always supported as an a...
Rob Marris | 472 c452 (Link to this contribution)
Like many others, I want to discuss amendments Nos. 258 and 1. I do not know whether those who table...
Peter Bone | 472 c452 (Link to this contribution)
I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument, but what would happen if the United Kingdom were in a ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c451 (Link to this contribution)
Order. I really do think that we ought now to return to the subject matter under discussion, which i...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c451-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry, Mrs. Heal. I shall therefore not rehearse my claim that I understood the Maastricht trea...
Doug Henderson | 472 c448 (Link to this contribution)
I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman's point. The European position will be stated if there ...
John Redwood | 472 c448 (Link to this contribution)
The point is that that would not have to be done three times. Doing it twice would be quite enough—w...
Rob Marris | 472 c464 (Link to this contribution)
indicated dissent.
Lord Deben | 472 c471-2 (Link to this contribution)
No; I ought to try to go on.
The second issue, which I find extremely difficult to deal with logica...
Mike Gapes | 472 c444-5 (Link to this contribution)
I take it from that intervention that the right hon. Gentleman wants inefficiency and incoherence be...
Mark Lazarowicz | 472 c461-3 (Link to this contribution)
The right hon. Gentleman's contribution, with respect, seems to exemplify the type of approach that ...
John Redwood | 472 c435 (Link to this contribution)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there will be a common position in Europe on most of the important is...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c459 (Link to this contribution)
Yes, These developments are, to all intents and purposes, irreversible, and undermine one of the bas...
Mark Harper | 472 c453 (Link to this contribution)
There is a slight inconsistency between the hon. Gentleman's position and that of the Chairman of th...
Ed Davey | 472 c437 (Link to this contribution)
Can the hon. Gentleman say what the Conservatives object to should the EU high representative make a...
Ed Davey | 472 c445 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to speak primarily because the Liberal Democrats have concerns with every amendment in this g...
Rob Marris | 472 c448 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with my hon. Friend's description of the situation. Does he agree that there is no downside?...
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