Police and Justice Bill. Lords Committee stage, fourth day, concluded. Clauses 28-52 agreed to, Clauses 37,39,40,42 and 52 as amended. Schedules 9-15 agreed to, Schedules 14 and 15 as amended. New clauses considered. Bill reported with amendments (HL Bill 139 2005-06). (Part 1 of 2)
Police and Justice Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Tuesday, 11 July 2006,
in the House of Lords.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
684 c594-659
Session
2005-06
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Police and Justice Bill . Brought from Commons . Explanatory Notes HL Bill 104-EN also published
Thursday, 11 May 2006
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 11 May 2006
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c594 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Mov...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c598 (Link to this contribution)
I warmly support the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. As she said, it is absolu...
Show all contributions (121)
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c598-9 (Link to this contribution)
I add my voice in support of the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has made a very practica...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c596-7 (Link to this contribution)
I fully understand that concern has previously been expressed about the apparent breadth of the cons...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c595-6 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendments tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Henig and Lady Harris of Richmond. I s...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c595 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. As she has so clearly outlined, t...
Baroness Henig | 684 c594-5 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 140:
Page 27, line 41, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Baroness said: Ame...
Baroness Henig | 684 c597-8 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 143:
Page 104, line 4, at end insert-
““( ) In exercising his functions to ins...
Baroness Henig | 684 c597 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for his explanation and for the move that he has made on Amendment No. 145. ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c597 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot immediately envisage circumstances that would disturb the arrangement which the noble Lord ...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c597 (Link to this contribution)
I have a particular interest in this matter because, when HMI used to carry out inspections, it was ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c601 (Link to this contribution)
I do not rule out the involvement of an element of peer review. I sought to make clear that we do no...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. Where are the special people who know about polic...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution)
At the outset I made the point that the inspectorate may require the importation of professional jud...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister talked about warmth at the start of his response to this amendment. If the inspectorate...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c600 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the noble Lord. There is nothing wrong with the inspectorate taking advice from a wide ...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c599 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and my noble friend Lady Harris of Ri...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c599-600 (Link to this contribution)
I shall prefigure my comments by saying that there may be some warmth in them, but, ultimately, I am...
Baroness Henig | 684 c601 (Link to this contribution)
I thank my noble friend for that elucidation. No doubt we will want to discuss the issue in a more i...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c603 (Link to this contribution)
With his long experience as a Home Office Minister, I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, und...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c603 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 147 not move...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c603-4 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 171A:
Page 31, line 4, at end insert-
““““the Audit Commission”” means the Audi...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c604-5 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 171B:
Page 32, line 10, leave out from beginning to ““subsection”” in line 11 a...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c602 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his response but not for what was going on behind it. In no way has he take...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c602 (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I may confirm to the noble Baroness that I have received the correspondence and just this da...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c602-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I hope that he and his officials will understand more clearly ...
Earl Ferrers | 684 c603 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister said that the Audit Commission would look at this in a joined-up way. What did he mean ...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c601 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 146:
Page 107, line 1, leave out paragraph (a).
The noble Baroness said: Thes...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c609 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for speaking to the amendments, but ultimately we cannot commend...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c609 (Link to this contribution)
As I made clear, this is a probing amendment to meet the requirements of the all-party group, to whi...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c608 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 173:
Page 32, line 13, after ““person”” insert ““aged 18 years or over””
The ...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c608-9 (Link to this contribution)
When I saw the amendment I wondered what its purpose was since a lot of the relevant damage is done ...
Lord Geddes | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment No. 176 is a joint amendment.
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c609-10 (Link to this contribution)
moved AmendmentNo. 173A:
Page 32, line 25, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 33 an...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c607 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have had a certain amount of e-mails and discussions about these clauses. In general I t...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c607-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have heard what both noble Earls have had to say on this subject. The noble Earl, Lord N...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c605-7 (Link to this contribution)
With the leave of the Committee and at the invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I shall speak ...
Lord Geddes | 684 c611 (Link to this contribution)
Before calling Amendment No. 178, I must advise the Committee that if it is agreed to, I will not be...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c611-2 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 178:
Page 33, leave out line 24.
The noble Earl said: This subsection was int...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c613-4 (Link to this contribution)
I shall also speak to Amendment No. 178ZA in this group. To be honest, Amendment No. 178, deleting t...
Baroness Harris of Richmond | 684 c614 (Link to this contribution)
We agree with this amendment. As I understand it, under paragraph (b) a software developer will need...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c615-6 (Link to this contribution)
I listened with interest to the noble Earls, Lord Northesk and Lord Erroll, as I always do when they...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c616 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that reply and I thank the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and the noble Baroness,...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has failed to perceive that we are on Amendment No. 176, which is in my...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution)
The embarrassment is mine, and I apologise fulsomely to the Committee and to the noble Earl. I do ha...
Earl of Northesk | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 176:
Page 33, line 6, at end insert-
““( ) a reference to impairing, preventin...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c620-2 (Link to this contribution)
It is the case that those developing this area of criminal law have had to work hard in the past dec...
Lord Hylton | 684 c620 (Link to this contribution)
I welcome the intention behind the amendments because they would tighten up the law, which would ben...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c617-20 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 179:
After Clause 42, insert the following new clause-
““ENCRYPTED DATA AND IN...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c617 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 178A to 178C:
Page 33, line 39, at end insert-
““( ) The amendments made by ...
Earl of Erroll | 684 c616-7 (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 178ZA:
Page 33, line 24, leave out ““likel...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c622-3 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 185A:
Page 36, line 12, at end insert-
““( ) Nothing in this section shall aut...
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution)
had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 182:
After Clause 43, insert the following...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that that can be arranged.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c640-1 (Link to this contribution)
I say straight away that the Government share the feeling of frustration, if not irritation, that th...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c641-2 (Link to this contribution)
I can answer that very simply. As I tried to establish, there is a conflation of two issues. The fir...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 684 c641 (Link to this contribution)
If, as my noble friend says, there is currently an equivalence of test, why all the fuss about ratif...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c641 (Link to this contribution)
I think that it can to the following extent. A process has to be gone through in the United States i...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c641 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. Is she suggesting that the view of an American j...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution)
If all is as the Minister described, can she explain why Irish Americans are opposing ratification?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution)
I cannot answer the noble Lord on the issue of Irish-Americans, but I can tell the Committee that th...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution)
I hope that the noble Baroness can help me because, as she knows, I am not a lawyer and I do not und...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord will know that we have been successful in extraditing many people from the United Sta...
Viscount Tenby | 684 c633-4 (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak briefly and in general terms to support the amendment to which I have added my name.
...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c629-33 (Link to this contribution)
We on these Benches have objected to the extradition arrangements with the USA ever since the text o...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 684 c635-6 (Link to this contribution)
There appears to bea widespread sense of injustice throughout thisCommittee and in the country as a ...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 684 c636 (Link to this contribution)
Like my noble friend Lord Goodhart, I had the privilege of learning much of my law at a great Americ...
Lord Rees-Mogg | 684 c636-7 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment on grounds raised by the Prime Minister in the other place last week but whi...
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts | 684 c637-9 (Link to this contribution)
I support my noble friend’s amendments. I have followed the issue of UK/US extradition policy with s...
Lord Monson | 684 c639-40 (Link to this contribution)
In the article in the Financial Times yesterday mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson—I say this...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c625 (Link to this contribution)
After that comprehensive reply, it would be churlish to do other than say that I will make sure that...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c623-4 (Link to this contribution)
I will go carefully over my speaking note. I can see that the amendment has three possible consequen...
Lord Dholakia | 684 c623 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendment for the reasons identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. It would be h...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution)
Only from Section 84(7)? Thank you. I am very grateful.
Lord Kingsland | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution)
From the designation. Amendment No. 186 reverses the effect of the order of 16 December 2003. That i...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution)
I am going to press the noble Lord, because this is an important point. We understand that there is ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c625-9 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 186:
After Clause 46, insert the following new clause-
““DESIGNATION OF PART 2...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 684 c629 (Link to this contribution)
If I can, I wish to speak before the Motion is moved. This is simply for clarification, because I do...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c659 (Link to this contribution)
I beg to move that the House be resumed. In moving the Motion I propose that the House should again ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c658-9 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendments Nos. 188 to 190:
Page 134, line 5, leave out ““19A”””” and insert ““19B””””
Pag...
Lord Goodhart | 684 c659 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 191A:
Page 142, line 5, at end insert-
““14A (1) Section 84 (case where person...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution)
If what was said in paragraph 66 of the judgment of the Court of Appeal was not intended as a reflec...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution)
I had hoped thatthe noble Lord had understood what I have said: that the United States does not have...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c650-1 (Link to this contribution)
It is plain from the recent Court of Appeal decision that it has the full benefits of the treaty. It...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c653 (Link to this contribution)
moved Amendment No. 187:
Page 134, line 3, at end insert-
““(j) forum.””;””
The noble Lord said: ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c653-5 (Link to this contribution)
This group of amendments were briefly alluded to in our debate on the previous group, but the argume...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c655 (Link to this contribution)
I spoke to these amendments at an earlier point and there is only one additional matter to which I w...
Lord Tebbit | 684 c655 (Link to this contribution)
I wonder if my noble friend could help me on a point. I have heard several references this evening t...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c655 (Link to this contribution)
I share the conclusion reached by my noble friend. I understood them to be described as the NatWest ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution)
Since it was I who referred to the Enron Three, for his erudition I invite the noble Lord to look at...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution)
I agree. I am simply seeking to clarify why I referred to them as the Enron Three. I did so because ...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c656 (Link to this contribution)
I am not aware, at this stage of the judgment, that the court is entitled to take any view about gui...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c648-9 (Link to this contribution)
What I am saying quite clearly is that, first, I understand the strength of feeling that has been ex...
Lord Brittan of Spennithorne | 684 c647-8 (Link to this contribution)
If the current situation is so entirely satisfactory, as the Minister seems to be saying, why on ear...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c648 (Link to this contribution)
I have, but I am very happy to clarify it. One of the main benefits that we will get from the treaty...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c646 (Link to this contribution)
I hear what the noble Lord says, but the United States of America is the United States of America. I...
Lord Rees-Mogg | 684 c646 (Link to this contribution)
Would the Minister not agree that the standards of justice and the standards of prisons, which are v...
Lord Kingsland | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution)
I can be relatively—indeed, exceedingly—telegraphic. At the beginning of her response to this debate...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution)
That is what the decision of Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Ouseley appears to make crystal clear....
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution)
I shall not give way just now. I had reached the second myth and there are still several to go. I am...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution)
I may be able to save the noble Baroness from the risk of misleading the Committee. She referred us ...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution)
I tried to correct myself. I said ““evidence”” and then ““information””, correcting myself on the se...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c643-4 (Link to this contribution)
I do not agree. Prior to reading the decision of Lord Justice Laws andMr Justice Ouseley, I would ha...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 684 c643 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister agree that information is not evidence and that there is no basic evidence put bef...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c644-6 (Link to this contribution)
The reason is that there has been an unfortunate conflation between the failure to ratify the treaty...
Lord Richard | 684 c644 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend says that there is broad parity and broad reciprocity. What, then, is she going to t...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister agree that all that has to be done now is for an American investigator, through a ...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c602 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment would remove the requirement for the Audit Commission and the Auditor General for Wale...
Lord Bassam of Brighton | 684 c610 (Link to this contribution)
My understanding is that our amendments cover the same ground, and as I advised the Committee we had...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the Minister for that sympathetic reply and I think that progress is being made her...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c647 (Link to this contribution)
It is the reality of where we are. The United States has a system that is part federal and part stat...
Lord Geddes | 684 c609 (Link to this contribution)
Before calling Amendment No. 173A, I must advise the Committee that if it or Amendment No. 174 is ag...
Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 684 c622 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[A...
Lord Christopher | 684 c649 (Link to this contribution)
Would my noble friend be kind enough to confirm that I have heard and interrupted her correctly: tha...
Baroness Scotland of Asthal | 684 c642 (Link to this contribution)
That is not right. Section 71 sets out clearly that the evidence would have to be sufficient to just...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 684 c634-5 (Link to this contribution)
I support Amendment No. 186, particularly in the context of the journey that the Minister is about t...
Baroness Henig | 684 c600-1 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend will understand when I say that I am a little disappointed by some of what he has sa...
Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 684 c648 (Link to this contribution)
May I ask the noble Baroness a question that may be in the minds of many Members of the Committee, e...
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