Police and Justice Bill

There appears to bea widespread sense of injustice throughout thisCommittee and in the country as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, has exploded the Government’s suggestion that the test for the US and that for our own country is equal. The key question is reciprocity. When the Government proposed the order, we were assured that there would be a fairly rapid ratification by the US Senate, but all those who know US politics know that the Executive propose and Congress disposes. The Senate has no incentive to comply, in spite, no doubt, of the very honeyed and persuasive words of the noble Baroness. When do the Government expect the Senate to ratify the order? It is hardly likely to happen before the mid-term elections, for all sorts of lobbying reasons. US foreign policy and US policy in relation to legal obligations are effectively a conflict of interests and, frankly, the US-Irish interest and the interest in re-election is mightier than anything that we might put to the US at this time. There is no reciprocity; there is no serious prospect, in my judgment, of the US Senate changing its mind, in spite of the noble Baroness’s visit. Therefore, there will be no pressure, or at least no sufficient pressure, either from the Executive in a mid-term election year or from us. The Senate has a constitutional position on treaty ratification. I know well from my previous position chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee in another place that we do not have that constitutional position, but there are constitutional obligations and responsibilities and there are political obligations. Our US friends are proud democrats and they will recognise the proud democracy that is here. There are political imperatives that they must understand when this House, and perhaps also the other place, recognise the injustice in this. I leave it at that. It is very likely that this Committee will overwhelmingly say that we are dissatisfied with the current imbalance. The question remains what, if anything, the Government will do about it. There will be a clear expression from us. I hope that the Government will respond to the debate, or at least to the vote that will follow, and say that, given the pressure of public opinion, although we value our very close and warm relationship with the US, it must understand the democratic imperatives here and that sense of injustice. I hope that the Government will say firmly, after due reflection, that the matter should be put on hold and that there should not be extradition of those currently faced with that threat.