UK Parliament / Open data

Housing and Planning Bill

Lords committee stage first day. Clauses 12 to 54 agreed to, with clauses 20, 22 and 38 agreed to as amended. Schedules 1 to 3 agreed to. Part 1 of 2.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
768 cc2132-2192 
Session
2015-16
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Housing and Planning Bill 2015-16. Brought from the Commons
Wednesday, 13 January 2016
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee twentieth report.
Wednesday, 3 February 2016
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Housing and Planning Bill
Tuesday, 9 February 2016
Parliamentary proceedings
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2016-0180
Thursday, 25 February 2016
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Greaves | 768 c2133 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Greaves

A1: Clause 12, page 8, line 17, leave out “rogue” and insert “s...

Lord Greaves | 768 cc2133-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is an exciting privilege to set off this Committee. I do not know how many sittings ...


Show all contributions (131)
Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2135 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is a perfect description of the kinds of people we are dealing with. It will empha...

Lord Deben | 768 c2135 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am so pleased to be on the same side as the noble Lord who has just spoken. It seems ...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2135 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would not wish to be considered to be a ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2135-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, before I begin, I will correct a comment I made at Second Reading. At col. 1266 in

<...
Lord Northbourne | 768 c2136 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I speak as a humble landlord. How will I know whether I am a rogue?

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2136 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord will know very well if he is a rogue landlord, because I will now read out the def...

Lord Greaves | 768 cc2136-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is not the correct definition, with respect to the Minister, unless being banned b...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2137 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

C1: Clause 13, page 9, line 1, leave out from “means” to end of...

Lord Beecham | 768 cc2137-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 8ZA. Both amendments stem from the 20th report of the D...

Lord Foster of Bath | 768 cc2138-2140 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise in support of the amendments that have just been introduced. At Second Reading I...

Lord Deben | 768 c2140 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is quite understandable why the Government have been—if I may put it like this —so l...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2141 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I want to intervene briefly again, because this raises an issue of principle which came...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2141-2 (Link to this contribution)

Amendments C1 and 8ZA relate to the same issue, so I shall address them together. Amendment C1 wo...

Lord Shipley | 768 c2142 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, can I confirm my understanding of what she has said about secondar...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2142 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for seeking that clarification. I said that we were planning to publish th...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2142 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s reply so far as it goes but there remain significant p...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2143 (Link to this contribution)

I am happy to consider it, but the guidance for the local authorities will make it clear in what ...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2143 (Link to this contribution)

That would be extremely helpful, but it would be particularly important to be clear what standard...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 768 c2143 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

1: Clause 13, page 9, line 10, at end insert—

...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 768 cc2143-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for covering so much of the explana...

Earl of Lytton | 768 c2145 (Link to this contribution)

I support the noble Baroness and, in doing so, I declare my interests, first as a professional pr...

Lord Shipley | 768 cc2145-6 (Link to this contribution)

In a sense, everything has been said about this issue, but we must put on the record, for the avo...

Lord Beecham | 768 cc2146-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I warmly endorse everything that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has said, and I, too, pa...

Viscount Eccles | 768 c2147 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I was a colleague of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes on the Delegated Powers Com...

Lord Foster of Bath | 768 c2147 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I repeat my congratulations to the noble Baroness on being the first in your Lordships’...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2147-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I understand loud and clear the premise of the amendment of my noble friend Lady Gardne...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 768 cc2148-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed very helpfully to the amendment and debated it. ...

Baroness Grender | 768 c2149 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Grender

2: Clause 16, page 10, line 12, at end insert—

“( ) A...

Baroness Grender | 768 cc2149-2150 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these Benches welcome moves in this Bill to deal with rogue landlords, but this amendme...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 768 cc2150-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s comments and agree with everything that she has said. I sha...

Earl of Lytton | 768 c2151 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, has raised a very important matter, and it is appropr...

Baroness Redfern | 768 cc2151-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the Bill and welcome the following very clear measures to tackle the issue of...

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill | 768 cc2152-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendments 2 and 7, and draw the Committee’s attention to my entry in the reg...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 768 c2153 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support Amendment 7. I appreciate what has just been said, but certainly my view is t...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 cc2153-4 (Link to this contribution)

I will speak to the amendments moved to and spoken by the noble Baronesses, Lady Grender and Lady...

Lord Greaves | 768 cc2154-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendments put forward give rise to a very simple, brutal question—I speak as someb...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 768 cc2155-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, at the start of the first day of Committee, and my first contribution at that stage, I ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2156-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall answer the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, first because I ran out of time in a debat...

Lord Greaves | 768 c2158 (Link to this contribution)

I have an amendment later on that refers to empty dwelling management orders, which do not work v...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2158 (Link to this contribution)

I think that comes back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, about charges...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2158 (Link to this contribution)

A further question has just occurred to me. We are assuming that we are talking only about a land...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2158 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as far as I know, the mortgagee is responsible for paying the mortgage. If the rents do...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

The issue there would be whether the council had a first or second charge.

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, it would. May I clarify that in writing?

Lord Foster of Bath | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder if the Minister can help me because I am now slightly confused. If the local authority i...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

That might be the case. The point is that the local authority could recoup the costs. I think the...

Lord Greaves | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way when I was not asking her to. This is a new conventi...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I hope I made the point clearly that ultimately, the local authority will get its money...

Lord Greaves | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am trying to be helpful to the Minister. It would be extremely helpful if she could w...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think I understood what I was saying, but and I am sorry if noble Lords did not. I sh...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 768 c2159 (Link to this contribution)

While all this is going on, I am conscious that there is one very vulnerable tenant and one rogue...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2160 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not have any particular concerns about the rogue landlord; I am concerned about th...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 768 c2160 (Link to this contribution)

That is absolutely right. I have no worries for the rogue landlord but the noble Lord, Lord Deben...

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill | 768 c2160 (Link to this contribution)

In terms of the charges on the property, I seek some clarification. We are told that the local au...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2160-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would assume that in those circumstances the local authority would take a second char...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2161 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to add to the noble Baroness’s problems. However, I am slightly puzzled by the relatio...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2161 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as I understand it, the second penalty is an enhancement of the first, so they are rela...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2161 (Link to this contribution)

With respect, that does not tell us or the offender the basis on which the second penalty would b...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2161 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Clause 20 concerns a criminal offence whereas Clause 22 concerns a civil penalty, which...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2161 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to persist but that does not tell us the basis on which the relevant penalty would be ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2162 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord, not for letting me off the hook but for deferring the hook. I will write ...

Baroness Grender | 768 c2162 (Link to this contribution)

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this discussion and the noble Earl, Lord Lytto...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2162 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

3: Clause 20, page 11, line 23, leave out “thi...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2162 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

5: Clause 22, page 12, line 4, leave out “20” ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2163 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

8: Clause 22, page 12, line 13, leave out “20”...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 768 c2163 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville

9: Clause 31, page 15, line 29, a...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 768 cc2163-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when I spoke previously I should have drawn your Lordships’ attention to my entry in th...

Lord Beecham | 768 cc2165-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendments moved by the noble Baroness. I have one query about Amendment ...

Lord Tope | 768 c2166 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Bakewell spoke to these amendments fully and explained them very w...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 cc2166-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I firmly support Amendment 9, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2167-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 16 in my name in relation to Clause 38. Amendment 16 would m...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

On government Amendment 16, I do not quite understand why HMRC would want to gather these data. P...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is for tax purposes—to enable the rogue landlords to fulfil their tax obligations.

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

I am not opposed to that but are we saying that persons who are subject to the legislation in ter...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, could the noble Lord please repeat what he just said?

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

Are we saying that there is a separate category for those landlords who would fall under the legi...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it is the rogue landlords who are on the database. HMRC will have access to that databa...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

Does it not already have access to the Land Registry and can therefore find out more quickly and ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2169 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, anyone can have access to the Land Registry but not everyone can have access to the dat...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2170 (Link to this contribution)

But the rogue landlord must be the owner of the property; otherwise he would not be the landlord,...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 768 c2170 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I am very grateful to the...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2170 (Link to this contribution)

May I revert to my Amendment 15 about the HMO licence? I do not understand the logic of the Minis...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2170 (Link to this contribution)

Could the noble Lord repeat what he has just said?

Lord Beecham | 768 c2170 (Link to this contribution)

Amendment 15 would prevent a landlord on the database of rogue landlords obtaining an HMO licence...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2170 (Link to this contribution)

I rejected the amendment because the purpose of the database is not to ban landlords and property...

Baroness Andrews | 768 c2171 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, is it your Lordships’ pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn?

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2171 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, on that matter, I had almost forgotten what I was going to ask, but it was this: if we ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2171 (Link to this contribution)

The landlord who is on a database of rogue landlords has not necessarily been banned but may have...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2171 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Baroness Williams of Trafford

16: Page 18, line 21, at end insert—

“(5...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 768 cc2171-2 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Kennedy of Southwark

17: After Clause 51, insert the following new Clau...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 768 c2172 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendment 17, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, seeks to ex...

Lord Foster of Bath | 768 cc2172-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we are being asked in this amendment whether we think there is a need for further prote...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 768 c2175 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this is an interesting proposal and if it is introduced, leaseholders too should be inc...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 768 c2175 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendment, because I think there is a real issue here. Speaking as a form...

Lord Best | 768 cc2175-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare my interest as the chair of the council of the Property Ombudsman, and so I a...

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park | 768 cc2177-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for moving Amendment 17, which seeks to place int...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 768 c2178 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I take the point that the...

Lord Beecham | 768 c2178 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

18: After Clause 54, insert the following new Clause—

“Ac...

Lord Beecham | 768 cc2178-2180 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I may not be visible, but I rise to move Amendment 18 and speak to Amendment 27 in this...

Lord Flight | 768 cc2180-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register, and will speak to Amendment 21, whos...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 768 c2182 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I understood that Amendments 24 and 25 were in th...

Lord Flight | 768 c2182 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness is entirely correct. That is why I asked the indulgence of the Committee quick...

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park | 768 c2182 (Link to this contribution)

No, I fear we must stick with the group of amendments that we have.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 768 c2182 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to be a misery on this, but it is rather difficult because, when we get to that point ...

Lord Flight | 768 c2182 (Link to this contribution)

I am bound by that judgment, but I did ask the Whips’ Office and was given permission so to do.

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 cc2182-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure that the Whips’ Office has jurisdiction in these matters. The amendment i...

Lord Greaves | 768 c2183 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have Amendment 33A in this group. I do not want to say too much but give general supp...

Lord Flight | 768 c2183 (Link to this contribution)

I think I need to respond to that. Yes, it is correct that this would essentially be when a new r...

Lord Greaves | 768 c2183 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, but it would not be compulsory to send it back—or perhaps it would if the legislation sai...

Earl Cathcart | 768 c2184 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I should declare that I am a landlord. I support Amendment 21, tabled by my noble frien...

Lord O'Shaughnessy | 768 cc2184-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I register my concern about Amendments 18, 27 and 33A because of the unintended impact ...

Lord Greaves | 768 c2185 (Link to this contribution)

I do not understand how a simple act of telling the council that you are the owner of a property ...

Lord O'Shaughnessy | 768 c2185 (Link to this contribution)

That is a perfectly good question. I was going to end by talking about the voluntary arrangements...

Earl of Lytton | 768 cc2185-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this series of amendments has raised some very interesting points. At Second Reading, I...

Lord Foster of Bath | 768 cc2187-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we seem to be discussing two slightly separate issues in this group of amendments. The ...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 768 c2188 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that this issue came up earlier under the Deregulation Bill. I was...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 cc2188-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if I may, I will take note of what my noble friend Lord Flight has said and deal with i...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2189 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, it can access all data, but in particular it can access rogue landlord data. This is part of...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2189 (Link to this contribution)

I am not referring to rogue landlords but to all landlords.

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2190 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely—I would just make the point about the rogue ones, but the noble Lord is absolutely rig...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 768 c2190 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to press the Minister again, but has any estimate been made of what the cost would be?...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2190 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure whether an assessment has been made, but while I do not know what the cos...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 768 c2190 (Link to this contribution)

I wonder whether the Minister can also help me. She was helpfully describing a working party whic...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2190 (Link to this contribution)

It may be helpful if I tell the noble Baroness that what I discussed with my noble friend Lord Ca...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 768 c2190 (Link to this contribution)

But that would suggest that the chair of the working party and that party did not produce recomme...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 768 c2191 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the working group will meet in March and I would not want to pre-empt what it will come...

Lord Beecham | 768 cc2191-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will not keep Members of your Lordships’ House from their dinner or from the dinner b...

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