UK Parliament / Open data

UK Shale Gas

Adjournment debate and Backbench debate on Thursday, 18 July 2013, in the House of Commons, led by Caroline Lucas. The answering member was Michael Fallon.
Sixth backbench debate (second half). Agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
566 c360WH 
Session
2013-14
Chamber / Committee
Westminster Hall
Proceeding contributions
Caroline Lucas | 566 cc360-308WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I thank the Backbench Business Commit...

Lord Lilley | 566 c308WH (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Lady make it clear that what she calls a fossil fuel subsidy in the case of the UK ...


Show all contributions (136)
Caroline Lucas | 566 c308WH (Link to this contribution)

I do not think that it is nonsense. The Environmental Audit Committee, of which I am a member, is...

David Mowat | 566 c309WH (Link to this contribution)

I heard that number with interest: six times as much for fossil fuels as for renewables. Can the ...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c309WH (Link to this contribution)

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Environmental Audit Committee evidence, which goes through that...

David Mowat | 566 c309WH (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Lady give way on that point?

Caroline Lucas | 566 cc309-313WH (Link to this contribution)

I have answered that point.

Ministers have given us an industry-led community benefit schem...

Daniel Byles | 566 c313WH (Link to this contribution)

We all want evidence-based decision making, and it seems odd to say first that there is no eviden...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c313WH (Link to this contribution)

I would certain welcome that if it were reflected in the sort of statements that we hear from the...

David Mowat | 566 c313WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes the point that the cost of extracting the gas will be higher than the cost of...

Caroline Lucas | 566 cc313-8WH (Link to this contribution)

I think it will be made commercially viable through the sort of tax breaks that the Government ar...

Peter Bone | 566 c318WH (Link to this contribution)

I should like to tell right hon. and hon. Members that I will call the first Front Bencher no lat...

Lord Lilley | 566 c318WH (Link to this contribution)

For Members who cannot do the arithmetic, can you tell us how long we have to speak, Mr Bone?

...
Peter Bone | 566 c318WH (Link to this contribution)

No, you are quite capable of doing that, Mr Lilley.

2.2 pm

Eric Ollerenshaw | 566 cc318-320WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, and to have your understanding that I...

David Mowat | 566 c320WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making a number of strong points on behalf of his community in Lancashire, and ...

Eric Ollerenshaw | 566 c320WH (Link to this contribution)

On balance, my hon. Friend makes a fair point. It has been put to me that, if the area were the f...

Daniel Byles | 566 c320WH (Link to this contribution)

I know that my hon. Friend is looking at the issue carefully, as well he should. Does he agree th...

Eric Ollerenshaw | 566 cc320-1WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point, but he must understand that we then get the argume...

Tessa Munt | 566 c321WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is probably already aware of the Sullom Voe agreement, under which community b...

Eric Ollerenshaw | 566 cc321-2WH (Link to this contribution)

It is an interesting model, but there are serious problems with the definition of what the counci...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c322WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman may find it helpful to consider—certainly looking at US experience—that a frac...

Eric Ollerenshaw | 566 c322WH (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his technical expertise; that is also my understanding. I remind h...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c322WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to speak in this Backbench Business Committee debate with you in the Chair, Mr B...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c323WH (Link to this contribution)

Will my hon. Friend wait until I complete this point? I will come to him in a moment. His constit...

Graham Stringer | 566 c323WH (Link to this contribution)

Outside London and the south-east, the highest house prices in the country are in Aberdeen, due t...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c323WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is entitled to that view, but I do not agree with him.

There are serious con...

Lord Lilley | 566 c323WH (Link to this contribution)

There have been some 2 million wells fracked in the United States and not a single person has suf...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c324WH (Link to this contribution)

That is interesting, and if the right hon. Gentleman has references that he wants to pass on for ...

Daniel Byles | 566 c324WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is absolutely right about the report, but it was, as she said, about geological was...

Baroness Keeley | 566 cc324-5WH (Link to this contribution)

Those are interesting points, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if he was at meetings with...

Daniel Byles | 566 c325WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is being very generous in giving way. I might have misheard her, but I think she sa...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c325WH (Link to this contribution)

I do not think that that is my job—

Baroness Keeley | 566 c325WH (Link to this contribution)

I do not know about the particular developer we will have or the particular process that it will ...

Baroness Keeley | 566 cc325-8WH (Link to this contribution)

No, I want to make some progress.

I want to touch further on the potential environmental im...

Peter Bone | 566 c327WH (Link to this contribution)

Order. Because of the number of Members who have indicated that they wish to speak, with the auth...

Lord Lilley | 566 cc327-9WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to be at this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, and I am delighted that y...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c329WH (Link to this contribution)

I think I said that the driver for increasing fuel bills for most people today is rising prices o...

Lord Lilley | 566 c329WH (Link to this contribution)

The current cost of electricity produced from gas or coal is £50 per megawatt-hour. The current c...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c329WH (Link to this contribution)

Far from my being in la-la land, the right hon. Gentleman has very effectively not answered my qu...

Lord Lilley | 566 cc329-330WH (Link to this contribution)

Even that is not true. The most recent generation of gas turbines are so much more efficient than...

Lord Lilley | 566 c330WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman can intervene if he wishes to put me right.

Alan Whitehead | 566 c330WH (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman will lose time from me intervening, so I am sorry about that.

Lord Lilley | 566 c330WH (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Gentleman can be quick.

Alan Whitehead | 566 c330WH (Link to this contribution)

Thickness is not necessarily the final indicator.

Lord Lilley | 566 c330WH (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Gentleman does not have anything interesting to say, then he should not waste my time...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c330WH (Link to this contribution)

Well, it relates to geological faulting, clay, extractability, tightness—

Lord Lilley | 566 cc330-1WH (Link to this contribution)

Thank you very much. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. That was not very helpful to the debate...

Alan Whitehead | 566 cc331-2WH (Link to this contribution)

The debate here falls into two categories: a wider category and a narrower category. It is undoub...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c332WH (Link to this contribution)

Whatever number of wells my hon. Friend thinks each constituency would have to bear, does he thin...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c332WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Indeed, in the US shale gas drilling takes place right in the...

Daniel Byles | 566 c332WH (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure if the hon. Gentleman has seen the report by the Institute of Directors that was pu...

Alan Whitehead | 566 cc332-3WH (Link to this contribution)

Well, those are entirely different points. At a particular point we could meet a larger amount of...

David Mowat | 566 c333WH (Link to this contribution)

I am trying to understand the point that the hon. Gentleman has just made. Is his point that beca...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c333WH (Link to this contribution)

If every country in Europe produced the same amount of shale gas that is presently being produced...

Alan Whitehead | 566 cc333-4WH (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but I cannot give way any more or I would lose the rest of my time.

The other q...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c334WH (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Member may well have asked a very valid question. As I was saying, such a plant pr...

Daniel Byles | 566 cc334-5WH (Link to this contribution)

I can confirm that I have no financial interests outside of this place whatsoever. I sit on the E...

Graham Stringer | 566 c335WH (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that not only would that gas be expensive because it is being impo...

Daniel Byles | 566 c335WH (Link to this contribution)

Although I said that we would be using broadly the same amount of gas, the hon. Gentleman is righ...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c335WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman concur—I think that he already is concurring—that the notion of that supp...

Daniel Byles | 566 cc335-6WH (Link to this contribution)

I agree. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman could accuse me of saying that lower prices is th...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c336WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. This issue is developing in my constituency, and the comp...

Daniel Byles | 566 cc336-7WH (Link to this contribution)

I agree. If companies are implying that there will be almost no impact whatever, they should look...

Alan Whitehead | 566 c337WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the use of water would not be on a regular basis over 10 year...

Daniel Byles | 566 c337WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right. It peaks and then trails off, but in that entire 10-year period, inc...

David Amess | 566 cc337-8WH (Link to this contribution)

Members will be pleased that the air conditioning has now been fixed. They will now feel better.<...

Graham Stringer | 566 c338WH (Link to this contribution)

I had not noticed that the air conditioning had changed.

I congratulate the hon. Member for...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c338WH (Link to this contribution)

It is important to tell my hon. Friend that I already have evidence that, because of these develo...

Graham Stringer | 566 cc338-9WH (Link to this contribution)

That is completely consistent with what I was saying—that the fear of the activity, rather than t...

David Mowat | 566 c339WH (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the point the hon. Gentleman has just made about renewables and potential increases ...

Graham Stringer | 566 cc339-340WH (Link to this contribution)

It would not be if it was just a hedge and it was not artificially pushing the cost of gas and ot...

David Mowat | 566 c340WH (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on obtaining the debate an...

David Mowat | 566 cc340-1WH (Link to this contribution)

I apologise; it is probably my fault. Just to be clear, the price of solar is something upwards o...

Graham Stringer | 566 c341WH (Link to this contribution)

One of the points that has not been made is that there is a slight assumption that shale gas is j...

David Mowat | 566 cc341-2WH (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. He is completely right. Indeed, it would be more accur...

David Mowat | 566 c342WH (Link to this contribution)

They will burn, as my hon. Friend says, a dirty coal. It is extraordinary that that is happening ...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c342WH (Link to this contribution)

Germany is on course to meet its emissions reduction target far more effectively than we are. The...

David Mowat | 566 c342WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes an important point, if it were true, but the fact is that Germany has 25% hig...

Kerry McCarthy | 566 cc342-4WH (Link to this contribution)

As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I want to focus on the ar...

Lord Lilley | 566 c343WH (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Lady ever feel that she has a duty to her constituents not merely to pander to ever...

Kerry McCarthy | 566 c345WH (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman should speak to his Conservative colleagues who control Bath and...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c345WH (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an excellent representation of her constituents’ concerns, and she is th...

Kerry McCarthy | 566 c345WH (Link to this contribution)

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The patronising responses from some Government Members, wit...

Tessa Munt | 566 cc345-6WH (Link to this contribution)

Thank you for your generosity in allowing me to contribute to this debate, Mr Amess. I apologise ...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 566 cc346-8WH (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing the debate.

Caroline Lucas | 566 c348WH (Link to this contribution)

I very much agree about the planning system. Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore share my dis...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 566 c348WH (Link to this contribution)

My interest is in what the guidelines say; I will not criticise the Government for not bringing t...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c348WH (Link to this contribution)

The right hon. Gentleman is making some good points about uncertainty, which I can echo from my c...

Lord Herbert of South Downs | 566 cc348-9WH (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure that I accept the hon. Lady’s point. Timely provision of a view by the Environment ...

Tom Greatrex | 566 c349WH (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Amess. I congratulate the Backbench B...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c349WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman implied that it was ideological or absolutist to say that I cannot see what sc...

Tom Greatrex | 566 cc349-350WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes my point for me. That is an absolutist position, and she has defined

Tom Greatrex | 566 c350WH (Link to this contribution)

I will give way one more time, but then I hope to conclude my remarks.

Caroline Lucas | 566 c350WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is kind to give way. I am only intervening again because he is quoting what he...

Tom Greatrex | 566 cc350-1WH (Link to this contribution)

I would like us to invest in renewables, because I think that it is important, but I take a sligh...

Tom Greatrex | 566 c351WH (Link to this contribution)

I see that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with me, so I do not want to chance my arm too much, b...

Michael Fallon | 566 cc351-2WH (Link to this contribution)

I, too, thank the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for starting this debate, a...

Michael Fallon | 566 cc352-3WH (Link to this contribution)

If the hon. Lady will excuse me, I will not give way.

The United States has felt the great ...

Michael Fallon | 566 cc353-5WH (Link to this contribution)

I will come to some of the hon. Lady’s concerns a little later.

First, we announced last De...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c355WH (Link to this contribution)

Will the Minister give way? There is a point that he has not moved on to, and I think there is ti...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c355WH (Link to this contribution)

I raised the point in my speech that the potential site I mentioned is in a heavily populated urb...

Michael Fallon | 566 cc355-6WH (Link to this contribution)

I must apologise to the hon. Lady. A large number of points have been made during this three-hour...

Tom Greatrex | 566 c356WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister will be aware that the Environment Agency requirement is for self-certification of w...

Michael Fallon | 566 c356WH (Link to this contribution)

It is certainly the responsibility of the operator to disclose that; but obviously, it is for the...

Tessa Munt | 566 c356WH (Link to this contribution)

I hope that the Minister will forgive me a brief intervention. From my past experience, the Envir...

Michael Fallon | 566 cc356-7WH (Link to this contribution)

I will certainly consider that suggestion, and if I may, I will write to my hon. Friend about it....

Caroline Lucas | 566 c357WH (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has referenced, now and at the beginning of his winding-up speech, the fact that our...

Michael Fallon | 566 c357WH (Link to this contribution)

I am coming to the point about planning guidance—I was due to do that—if the hon. Lady can contai...

Michael Fallon | 566 c357WH (Link to this contribution)

I was coming to the point about planning guidance. The hon. Lady has somehow suggested that I was...

Michael Fallon | 566 c358WH (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady raised two other questions in her last intervention, but I will give way if she wan...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c358WH (Link to this contribution)

I should like to intervene again, first to say to you, Mr Amess, that I think that this is yet an...

David Amess | 566 c358WH (Link to this contribution)

Order. This is a very warm afternoon. I just appeal to hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber ...

Michael Fallon | 566 c358WH (Link to this contribution)

Yes, I am content that the safety regime in the North sea is fit for purpose. It is kept constant...

Baroness Keeley | 566 c358WH (Link to this contribution)

We were expecting something to be published today; the word “publish” was used. The Minister seem...

Michael Fallon | 566 cc358-360WH (Link to this contribution)

I will certainly check that, but the point of putting the guidance on the website is that it is a...

David Amess | 566 c360WH (Link to this contribution)

I was not anticipating that any time would be left, but would the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavil...

Caroline Lucas | 566 c360WH (Link to this contribution)

That is very kind, Mr Amess. I sense that the mood in the room is one of warmth. We have probably...

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