Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

Is not national security rather like reasonable doubt—two well understood English words, as a jud...

Amendments have been tabled to Bills of this kind to try to define the concept, but that leads to...

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

I will in just a second. I am sorry not to give way to the Chairman of the Committee at the momen...

I am very grateful indeed, in the circumstances, to the Minister for giving way. Did I hear him c...

I do not think that I would conceivably use the language that my hon. Friend tries to attribute t...

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?

I will in just a second.

There is a serious risk, in our opinion and in the opinion of thos...

Does the Minister accept that good judges will throw out frivolous applications by ingenious lawy...

Let us not make this a competition about which of us most trusts British judges to make reasonabl...

On a wider point, has my right hon. and learned Friend thought how much comfort this will give to...

I have, but with the greatest respect to my hon. Friend’s expertise in this area, I must say that...

rose—

In order to avoid losing the thread—as far as there is one—of the Opposition’s amendment, I will ...

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I must conclude. I apologise to those distinguished Members to whom I have not given way.

I...

It is a pleasure, and it is certainly a challenge, to follow the Minister without Portfolio.

May I ask whether the Joint Committee also considered the human rights of society more widely, in...

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s point. These are very important issues, and the Committee was cogn...

As I have already argued, that sounds as though it is demanding that both the Secretary of State ...

I am sure that—

On that point, will my hon. Friend give way?

Yes.

I think that the Minister without Portfolio is in danger of not understanding his own Bill or the...

My right hon. Friend has explained that better than I could.

I have a question for the Mini...

It is rare that I find myself agreeing with the lion’s share of what Opposition Members are sayin...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I am concluding, if my hon. Friend will forgive me.

For those reasons, I shall support amen...

I, too, intend to speak briefly as I know that a range of Members want to contribute.

My sp...

Will my right hon. Friend take it from me that using the concept of national security as somethin...

My hon. Friend makes my case for me. If she wanted the information about these matters to be put ...

That is completely wrong. As one who has spent many years prosecuting, dealing with issues such a...

It may well be that some people take a principled position that paying out millions of pounds is ...

The right hon. Lady and a number of others have fallen into the same trap as did the Advocate-Gen...

I am sure the hon. Gentleman would make an amazingly creative lawyer, if he is not already one. B...

Does the right hon. Lady accept that if sensitive material is redacted under PII, that may be the...

As ever, my colleague on the Intelligence and Security Committee makes the point in straightforwa...

On the point that the right hon. Lady was making in respect of balance, there is another element ...

The hon. Gentleman, as ever, speaks with passion on these issues and I respect his point of view....

The judge will have to be satisfied that the Secretary of State has considered the matter. He wil...

I hear what the right hon. and learned Gentleman says. He has been very inventive and creative in...

It is a particular pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears)...

My right hon. Friend mentions how things have changed over 40 years and how things have happened....

As one of the two junior Ministers who took the Secret Intelligence Service Bill through the Hous...

1997.

Yes, 1997; for only a decade or two. A generation of special advocates have taken a strong stance...

Just to continue to emphasise the PII point that the right hon. Gentleman makes, he will be aware...

The hon. Lady is of course right, but let me come to the point that I was driving towards, which ...

My right hon. Friend rightly says that in PII, because people do not like excluding all the evide...

rose—

I give way to my right hon. and learned Friend.

As a Minister who signed a PII certificate in the Matrix Churchill case and was vindicated by the...

I do not dispute any of that; that is where I am coming to with respect to the attitude of the sp...

The right hon. Gentleman is making a characteristically interesting speech. He has referred sever...

All right, let me give the right hon. Gentleman an example. The question is whether or not there ...

rose—

rose—

Forgive me, but I am just coming to an end.

The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles wa...

I begin by drawing the House’s attention to the fact that, along with Her Majesty’s Government an...

The right hon. Gentleman said that he is still here, and I think that the House very much appreci...

Of course. Those of us with experience of SIAC will know that it too could be seen as a parody of...

It is helpful for those of us who are amateurs with regard to these issues to benefit from the ri...

Let us be clear that SIAC does not deal with criminal cases. There is no procedure in our system,...

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I recommend that the hon. Gentleman not test me on the details of the Criminal Evidence (Witness ...

I cannot resist the temptation. To amplify the point that was just made by the hon. Member for Be...

Of course I do, and that was going to be my next point. No one is suggesting that SIAC deals with...

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to make progress, because I have already used up a lot o...

rose—

Order. I ask Members to show some time restraint, because, as they can see, a lot of Members want...

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). Although I am not sure...

May I reinforce the point that has been made to the Minister without Portfolio by Members from ac...

None of us wants to see Ministers’ time sucked up for a year reading documents and signing them. ...

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the last resort, I am grateful that both the Labour party spo...

I thank the Minister for saying that he will look more carefully at the matter. However late in t...

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about gisting. In an exchange with him in Committee, the Un...

I dare say that it would. We will have to see what happens.

To return to the principle, I t...

None of us likes the idea of closed proceedings or proceedings in which the evidence is kept from...

I think that it is the same as the right hon. Gentleman’s alternative would be in a criminal case...

I may have misheard, but the hon. Gentleman is not rejecting closed material proceedings altogeth...

I am sure that the Minister will be aware that I and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West...

rose—

Order. May I re-emphasise the time constraint?

I am pleased to speak in favour of my amendments 1 to 7, and I hope to press amendment 1 to the v...

I take it that the hon. Lady’s case is that better than a closed material procedure is public int...

Like the special advocates and many others in the legal profession, I believe that PII is a safer...

On a related point, the Government are currently obliged to settle cases, with none of the eviden...

I would argue, and a huge amount of legal opinion argues with me, that secret courts are a worse ...

I agree with the thrust of the hon. Lady’s speech. Does she accept that one problem with the secr...

Indeed, and I pointed out earlier the complicity of the intelligence services. Such arguments are...

On that point, is the hon. Lady aware that closed material procedures are already used by, for ex...

As somebody who has a constituent who has been subject to SIAC, I can assure the hon. Gentleman t...

The hon. Lady is making a strong point about the continuation in a new area of a procedure that a...

That is a good question. We like to hold our justice system up as an example to the world, yet if...

I understand the thrust of the hon. Lady’s argument and the position that her party takes, but do...

Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that, right now, other countries are not sharing their...

Yes, that is exactly what happened.

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. No one is suggesting that PII will not still be available so ...

It is generous of the hon. Lady to give way to me a second time.

As a member of the Intelli...

Well, all right. I stand corrected by the right hon. Gentleman, but if he is suggesting that we g...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I will make a little more progress. The TUC has taken a similar line and passed a motion that con...

I do not challenge the hon. Lady’s sincerity for a moment, but I hope she will accept that when i...

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that intervention but I am afraid that that resp...

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) does no service to the causes in which sh...

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman clarify whether that is the same Lord Carlile who argue...

I have no idea whether it is the same one or not; that will be a matter for Lord Carlile to deal ...

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

I want to make one other point, if I may.

The other element that critics of the Bill do not...

I am moved by the impassioned nature of my right hon. and learned Friend’s response to this matte...

I know the case that my hon. Friend is referring to, but that is not really the point at issue. T...

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I am conscious of the time, and I want to make a few more points, if my hon. Friend will forgive ...

My right hon. and learned Friend makes a powerful point regarding the interests of the plaintiff....

My right hon. and learned Friend is right.

That leads me to my final point, which goes to t...

I shall try to be brief, as I know that other Members wish to speak. It is a pleasure to follow m...

My right hon. Friend talked about a consensus in this House. I hope there will be the maximum amo...

My hon. Friend knows me well enough to know that I do not dismiss critics of the Bill. I listen t...

I think we have had this exchange before. The explanation is simple. The Government were faced, i...

The purpose of tabling amendment 70 —again, I am grateful for the support of hon. Members—was not...

I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware that the idea of having closed material proceedings ...

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. If CMPs are to be available in civil proceedings, they ...

The right hon. Gentleman has been very patient in listening to the whole debate. All the people w...

I accept that the Minister felt under enormous pressure to make that concession. Anybody who doub...

This has been a high quality debate, starting with a typically rigorous opening by the Minister w...

Does the hon. Gentleman also agree that this concerns not just the sources of intelligence, but t...

Of course, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I used the phrase “modus operandi”. This brave...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier). I shall try in a moment t...

I know that you are anxious to allow others to contribute, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I hope to encom...

I will follow in the tradition of the progressives, and say that I opposed the Special Immigratio...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I understand why my right hon. Friend wants to intervene, and she has made good points, but I am ...

With the leave of the House, I will respond on behalf of the Government. I will briefly address t...

With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker, may I repeat what I said almost four hours ago by...

Order. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 6—Review of secti...

The last debate was about the principles of closed material proceedings; we now turn to a new gro...

I am grateful for the fact that the Government have been responsive to the arguments made on thes...

I am pleased to engage in that debate. I will come to it when I address the amendments tabled by ...

How many CMPs does my hon. Friend anticipate there being in any one year?

Our latest estimate in October was that about 20 cases would fall within the scope of these proce...

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Before I do so, I will of course give way to my hon. Friend. We debated this issue in Committee, ...

I thank the Minister for tabling the two amendments that reflect what we discussed in Committee, ...

A five-yearly review with, in essence, each Parliament having the opportunity to examine the oper...

I understand the Minister’s arguments. May I make two other points? I do not seek to defend the e...

We have all said in a number of ways in Committee and on the Floor of the House that we accept th...

The Minister has kindly set out in some detail and in his usual authoritative way the basis for t...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for constantly plugging my Twitter accounts, as he did earlier, and Li...

I do not think that is for this debate, but good try. I should follow the example of my boss and ...

Order. Obviously there is a load of historical information that people might wish to discuss, but...

I am indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker.

The point I was trying to encapsulate is that there is so m...

May I place on record the support of the Joint Committee on Human Rights for my hon. Friend’s ame...

I am most grateful, and I think the whole House is grateful for the Joint Committee’s work: it ha...

I would just say that we have had an extensive debate on all the amendments on which he suggests ...

Order. What I can reflect on is that we should be sticking to the new clauses before us, and, as ...

I do not know how the Minister can say that when he has tabled new amendments on Report that intr...

Order. It is the new clauses that are under discussion and it is the new clauses we need to stick...

It might be that we can return to this matter briefly on Thursday, because the other place will w...

I wish to echo the words used a moment ago in support of the work of the Joint Committee on Human...

rose—

I give way to the Chairman of the JCHR.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the work of my Joint Committee. I am very att...

indicated assent.

I see at least one member of my Committee nodding. I will be putting it to my Committee next week...

I am grateful for what appears to be, already, the Joint Committee’s support for the recommendati...

What the hon. Gentleman has said is very persuasive, as is what was said by my hon. Friend the Me...

Well, I have one Front Bench aboard; that leaves another one. I do not see any movement just yet,...

I tabled new clause 9, which, as has been said, was debated in Committee. I congratulate Lawrence...

I wish first to put on the record my thanks to the Minister. In Committee he resisted many of my ...

In addressing the new clauses, the Minister said it was important to maintain confidence in our l...

We have had an interesting debate on these new clauses. I note that the hon. Member for Hammersmi...

I do not think that the Minister’s saying that the poor quality of debate in this House is a good...

I hesitate to tread on amendments in the previous group, but ultimately it is for this House to d...

Now that the Minister is talking about engaging Parliament and now that his right hon. and learne...

I would say that the provisions we have sought to introduce on the appointment of a reviewer are ...

I am sure I am pre-empting matters and that my hon. Friend was going to come on to this later in ...

It is difficult to answer my hon. Friend’s question. Parallels are difficult to draw in this resp...

I am a little concerned that I am listening to a suggestion that the legislation is somehow for t...

My hon. Friend says that it is a weak argument, but I disagree. An important part of the Bill is ...