Public Service Pensions Bill

The hon. Gentleman will know that this Government have introduced changes to private sector pensi...

Will the Minister give a commitment to revisit clause 9(2) to ensure that prison officers do not ...

The hon. Lady spoke passionately in the debate about this issue and I am sorry that we ran out of...

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. From the evidence session, he will be aware that even...

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I thank him for the excellent contributions he made in C...

Given that these changes will reduce the average value of the benefit for all scheme members by m...

As I said, in many cases, increased contributions have already taken place, and there is no evide...

In an era of increasing life expectancy, it is right and necessary to reform public service pensi...

Can the hon. Gentleman therefore confirm that his party would not change the future pensions link...

I do not think it would be sensible to make a permanent “no review” announcement when it comes to...

There is one other amendment, which I tabled in Committee, but which we did not push to a vote. P...

We did not table any amendments on judicial pensions. I suspect that the question of relative tax...

rose—

I am conscious of the time. I would be grateful if the hon. Lady let me conclude my remarks.

rose—

Order. This debate will finish at 7 pm, so short contributions will allow more Members to get in....

I support the Bill, because I want to see good-quality defined benefit pensions maintained in the...

Most people in Scotland, whether they work in the public sector or not, recognise that these pens...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I will not; I am conscious that other Members want to speak.

Many of those public sector wo...

I welcome this Bill for three particular reasons. First, I welcome the move to career average rat...

On Second Reading, I fully recognised the views expressed on the Opposition Benches about public ...

On the subject of the implications of pension changes for the police, does my hon. Friend recogni...

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Yes, I fully recognise the difficulties faced acros...

I want to make a couple of points about pensions in the round as we come to the end of the debate...

I just want to put on record that the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) attacked he...

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but if he revisits some of the private sector schemes, he will...

Does my hon. Friend not accept that those pension schemes are fundamentally different from the ty...

My hon. Friend makes a good point. He knows my views and is tempting me down the path of debating...

I want to refer, in particular, to my amendment 1. I found the contribution from the hon. Member ...

My hon. Friend is doing a fine job of explaining the concern of people who work in the Prison Ser...

That is absolutely right. When anybody looks to take up a new employment opportunity, they look a...

May I gently ask the hon. Gentleman to remind the House that prison officers in Northern Ireland ...

The hon. Lady makes a powerful point. Prison officers in Northern Ireland have had a particular p...

I shall make a brief contribution and oppose amendment 2, tabled by Opposition Members, which wou...

I am glad to have an opportunity to speak briefly about amendments 29, 30 and 31, which stand in ...

Will the hon. Lady give way?

I am sorry, but Mr. Speaker has asked me to keep my remarks brief. I hope that the hon. Lady will...

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), who made some imp...

What justification does the hon. Gentleman think there could possibly be for excluding from claus...

The hon. Lady has spoken eloquently and passionately about that point. I do not know whether she ...

rose—

Other Members want to contribute to the debate, so I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. He ...

I wish to speak in support of amendments 1, 2 and 9. Amendment 2 is straightforward: it seeks to ...

I want to address a couple of issues and reinforce some of the points made in Committee. It is no...

We have had a good debate on this set of amendments, but I am afraid that for reasons of time tha...

Will the Minister give way?

I am sorry, I do not have time.

There is no reason for those workers to be able to take the...

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I would like to reflect on the imp...

I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend’s flow, but will he clarify the application of the fa...

We discussed that earlier. Transfers from local government are currently covered by an equivalent...

Other, similar European countries have a younger retirement age and more generous pensions. Why a...

The hon. Gentleman perhaps has Greece in mind. Many countries that fit his description are suffer...

The Minister makes an important point on tax, but this is the largest bill for the taxpayer that ...

My hon. Friend made passionate contributions in Committee, where he made that same point. I will ...

The Minister mentions unfairness. Does he agree that one of the greatest unfairnesses was when th...

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 29, page 5, line 21,aft...

We turn now to the part of the Bill relating to pension age. Let me first deal with what we think...

To press the hon. Gentleman on his point, he has made the assertion—it may be a fact—that the sol...

I wonder what the hon. Gentleman is alluding to; perhaps he should elaborate. The Minister has no...

I will clarify my view, although I cannot speak for the Government. One criterion that differenti...

While I do not disagree about the bravery of those in the professions listed in the Bill, I couns...

Perhaps I may help the hon. Gentleman to address the conundrum with which he is challenging himse...

I do not deny the important role that is played by the professions listed in the Bill. What I am ...

Is the hon. Gentleman’s argument on the basis of physicality collapsing? As my hon. Friend the Me...

That is why amendment 16, which I urge the hon. Gentleman to look at, does not prescribe differen...

The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. He may regard the amendment as narrow, but I ...

If a private sector scheme rules to make its own arrangements, it has the flexibility to do so. W...

I sometimes feel as if I am on the wrong side of the Chamber for this Bill, but perhaps I may hel...

If only we had been talking about jockeys when the Under-Secretary of State for Skills, the hon. ...

Before hon. Members speak to other amendments in the group, may I refer the hon. Gentleman to the...

With the greatest respect, that does not deal with the problems, because there is a difference be...

I said in an intervention that I had some interesting views on the Opposition’s stance. I have sy...

Many years ago I took the bleep test and I can only describe its physical demands as a form of he...

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I do not rule out the possibility where there is empirical...

People are living longer and many, albeit not all, are remaining fitter for longer. It is suggest...

No, I do not. The Scottish Government have had plenty of time to look at the proposals, which ori...

I heard the Minister say that the Scottish Government had not made any formal request to change t...

If the Scottish Government wanted to suggest any amendments, we would of course have a sensible d...

Does the Minister think that nine days’ notice is sufficient time for the Scottish Government to ...

As I said, virtually every month the Chief Secretary has written to the Scottish Government, and ...

I will start with the good news that the Minister is willing to concede the principle, if not the...

I beg to move amendment 10, page 2, line 16, at end insert—

‘(3A) Scheme regulations shall ...

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 3, page 6, line 27, in ...

Clause 3 is an important part of the Bill, as it makes a series of arrangements for scheme regula...

The Bill must, of course, be compatible with the European convention on human rights and the juri...

The hon. Lady has hit upon an important point. There are questions about whether it impinges on b...

Let me follow on from what my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) has just ...

I thank the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) for tabling amendment 10, which gives ...

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister so early, but would he kindly explain for the benefit of the...

I am pleased that the hon. Lady is asking for clarity on this important question. When the Govern...

I simply do not understand why the Minister refuses to put clearer unambiguous clarifications, pr...

If the shadow Minister will allow me to continue my comments on this important issue, I shall, I ...

I am not trying to be obstreperous, but in a former life I drafted this stuff, so I would be grat...

The hon. Gentleman has approached this issue in a very thoughtful way. We consider that the high ...

The Economic Secretary has elaborated at great length on clause 19. My concern, however, is that ...

The requirement of

“with a view to reaching agreement”

is a high hurdle. I cannot rem...

I have great sympathy with many of the arguments that my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Har...

I have not seen this before, but we now have two types of consultation. The first is, “We’re cons...

I suppose it is a case of diet consultation—or consultation-lite—versus full-fat consultation, wh...

I beg to move amendment 13, page 5, line 21, after ‘age’, insert ‘or deferred pension age’.

In terms of the provisions in the Bill, the House of Commons Library informs us that this time bo...

I am not sure what point the hon. Gentleman is making. After our debate, I may have to check whet...

At least with regard to new clause 2 and the need for good communication and good information, it...

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case and sounding a clear warning. She mentions that clause 7...

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention, because that is an important point. If the res...

My hon. Friend is making another powerful point about amendment 11. She is right that the Scottis...

I was going to come to that point, because I am surprised that that opportunity has not been take...

I think I might be rescuing the hon. Lady from the point she was trying to make. Earlier, she str...

Order. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) will comment on that point only if it ...

I am more than happy to do so, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps we will have further debate on that ...

With reference to the amendment mentioned by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) ...

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention, but I suspect that it might also be outwith the term...

I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) for her speech. For the short time fo...

I welcome the Minister’s statement. I had quite a lot of sympathy with the Opposition’s case, sim...

My hon. Friend makes a good point and I hope that he is also reassured by the commitment I have j...

I welcome that commitment. The Minister said that the information should be provided “to some sch...

I agree. All scheme members, one way or the other, should receive annual information. That is the...

I seek clarification and perhaps also reassurance in relation to those who are members of small p...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the question. We will come to a related issue later, which may be ...

The reason why we tabled the amendment is important. Notwithstanding the Minister’s comments on w...

I respect the hon. Lady’s intentions, but for the reasons that I set out, I do not believe the am...

I thank the Minister for giving way once again. In all the correspondence that has gone back and ...

I have not seen all that correspondence, but to my knowledge the Scottish Government have not ask...

Will the Minister therefore meet with the War Graves Commission, because that looks as if it is p...

If the commission would like to have a meeting with me, I would be happy to do so.

However,...

I would like to thank the Minister for the clarity his letters provided on clause 16, which was h...

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks and hope that I can provide further such reassura...

The Minister, as ever, is being generous with his time. On amendments 7 and 8, his response will ...

I hope that I have made the Government’s commitment to defined benefit schemes very clear; I do n...

Let me reiterate that I have no problem whatsoever with the move to career average schemes. Does ...

The hon. Gentleman is right that many of us might well have to campaign to ensure that people inv...

I fully agree. What concerns me is that the Henry VIII powers in clause 3 are retrospective. This...

The hon. Gentleman puts his finger exactly on the issue: insecurity for future pensioners. That, ...

In part, this is linked to other reforms that the Government are introducing—my hon. Friend the s...

I am always delighted to follow the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). He and...

For more years than I can remember.

I have worked it out; it must be well over 30 years in chambers of one kind or another around Lon...

The hon. Gentleman is urging us to take at face value the statements from those on his Front Benc...

The right hon. Gentleman will know, as a former local government Minister, that there has already...

I should have declared my interest as a member of the local government pension scheme when I firs...

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his arrival in the House. I have been dealing with him in th...

What the hon. Gentleman said gives me the opportunity to peg in as a general point the fact that ...

The hon. Gentleman and I once worked out that we might have a very, very, very—however many “very...

I begin by expressing my gratitude to the Clerks and to Mr Speaker for their forbearance in ensur...

I understand the hon. Lady’s point and I know that some of the trade unions have commented on the...

I am afraid that I am not privy to the Scottish Government’s processes on this, so I cannot answe...

Will my hon. Friend give way?

I will not give way to my hon. Friend at the moment because I want to make some short remarks in ...

I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) in the amendments ...

One of my worries about the pension scheme changes relates to the different impacts that they wil...

My hon. Friend’s constituency is in Northamptonshire and mine is in south Yorkshire, but we share...

Members have discussed the technical definition of “closure”, and I ask the Economic Secretary to...

I support the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, and I hope the Economic Secretary will, too. For clarity’...

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Having chaired the London borough of Barnet pension ...

In respect of this Bill and the commitment to public sector pensions, what change in GDP are we l...

I am not qualified to judge that. I am not an economist, so I do not have information about the i...

I am not an economist either, but the issue is not the predicted rise in GDP; rather, it is the p...

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The pensions time bomb is not only to do with the fact that pe...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way again?

As long as the intervention is not a question about GDP.

Before I call the Opposition Front Bencher to move new clause 2, I should tell the House that I h...

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 3—Fair deal—

‘A ...

Having spent a considerable number of weeks serving on the Bill Committee, I am pleased that we n...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will give way. In fact, I was just about the quote the hon. Gentleman. He said:

“If we wa...

I am flattered that the shadow Minister should pay such attention to my words. Does he agree that...

That is an anachronism that has to change. The hon. Gentleman is correct that just because somebo...

In Committee, we also talked about the risk of people with public sector pensions making the perv...

Even though the quality of the scheme has been eroded, as we saw with the unilateral imposition o...

A few months ago in the Open Public Services White Paper, the Government expressed enthusiasm for...

Many public service workers whose services have been transferred to independent providers, whethe...

The hon. Gentleman will know that the fair deal arrangements introduced in 1999 by the Labour Gov...

The situation now is different because of the level of trust on which public service employees fe...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about trust, which is critical following the experience of man...

My right hon. Friend is correct. When we get a sense of the Government pulling the odd thread her...

Part of the concern and need to write such provisions into the Bill comes from the fact that no o...

Indeed; we will debate some of the worst aspects of clause 3 later. It feels as though when writi...

My hon. Friend is making an important argument in response to the intervention by my hon. Friend ...

Order. Before the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) replies, let me say that althoug...

It may be a bad habit but it was a jolly good intervention. I do not often do this, but I commend...

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if the Scottish Government can find the ways and means to fun...

That comes down to how the legislation is drafted. There are different financial consequences for...

I rise to speak briefly on Opposition new clause 3, which is on fair deal arrangements. Hon. Memb...

My principal concern, fresh from the doorsteps of Corby, is for the many individual members of th...

I congratulate the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) on his election to the House. His interve...

We hear what the Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury says, but can the hon. Gentlema...

Alas, I no longer speak on behalf of the Government, but that is a commitment given by Ministers ...

I rise to support the hon. Gentleman. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East, the H...

I listened carefully to my hon. Friend and to the Chief Secretary and I did not find any differen...

Does the hon. Gentleman not understand the sense of anxiety that many public sector employees fee...

Of course, that is an assertion by the hon. Gentleman. I do not recognise that crushing of confid...

Why does the hon. Gentleman think that that is a comfort, given that, as far as we can see, the G...

I fear that we are straying slightly from new clause 3 and the group of amendments, but I believe...

I rise to speak to the amendments in my name: amendments 4, 7 and 8.

Throughout the progres...

Is my hon. Friend aware of the concern among police officers highlighted last week in an excellen...

I fully concur with my hon. Friend. I received—perhaps he did too—an e-mail from Inspector Nick S...

The hon. Gentleman, like other hon. Members, will be aware of the indication that teachers will b...

Exactly, but I think it is across the piece. Whether or not we agreed with the last negotiations,...

Given the comments about the police pension scheme, I am sure the hon. Gentleman understands the ...

I can fully understand the feelings of police officers in Scotland, as I can those of officers ac...

I am intrigued by the hon. Gentleman’s point. He is absolutely right that firefighters, prison wo...

The local government scheme is fully funded, yet the Government seek to interfere with that, too....

Would the hon. Gentleman, like me, put this issue in the same area as transparency and giving inf...

That is exactly right. There has to be openness and transparency. The point has already been made...