UK Parliament / Open data

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 17 January 2012, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords report stage fourth day.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

734 c463-532, 549-70

Session

2010-12

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Welfare Reform Bill. As amended in Grand Committee.
Monday, 28 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c525 (Link to this contribution) It is clear that the Government are going to have to do some of this anyway, but in terms of an over...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c525 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is an experienced hand and has made a very interesting speech, but it would help the ...

Show all contributions (161)

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c523-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we support this amendment, moved so comprehensively by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thomp...

Baroness Browning | 734 c523 (Link to this contribution) In the context of this amendment and the ability of health and social services to carry out their st...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c528 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to see a Minister, whose integrity and respect for evidence has been apparent to the whol...

Lord Freud | 734 c528 (Link to this contribution) That is an assessment based on the delays that we anticipate from this amendment, which is actually ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c528 (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Lord give us a bit more detail of that estimate? The figure of £1.4 billion seems to...

Lord Freud | 734 c525-8 (Link to this contribution) I will come to my conclusion first. Basically, we are doing a lot of trialling in this process and t...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c521-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for the second time today I feel that I need to say something, however brief, because of m...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c519-21 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare my interest in these debates as a recipient of DLA. This amendment is every bit ...

Lord Rix | 734 c569 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister gave the shortest reply in Committee, interrupting my amendments, and I sat d...

Lord Freud | 734 c569 (Link to this contribution) 56KA: Schedule 9, page 138, leave out lines 17 to 20 Amendment 56KA agreed. Amendment 56L not move...

Lord Freud | 734 c569 (Link to this contribution) 56ZB: Clause 87, page 61, line 21, leave out subsection (2) Amendment 56ZB agreed. Clause 88 : Abo...

Lord Freud | 734 c570 (Link to this contribution) 56ZDA: Schedule 9, page 141, line 20, after ““84(1)”” insert ““or (Hospital in-patients)(1)”” Amend...

Lord Freud | 734 c570 (Link to this contribution) 56LA: Schedule 9, page 138, line 32, leave out ““, but before the ““and”” preceding paragraph (b),””...

Lord Freud | 734 c568 (Link to this contribution) 56ZA: Clause 87, page 61, line 20, at end insert ““— (a) within 2 years beginning with the date on w...

Lord Rix | 734 c568 (Link to this contribution) With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 55 withdrawn. Amendment 56 not moved. ...

Lord Freud | 734 c568 (Link to this contribution) I can certainly write the noble Lord on this matter and see what we can do with the paperwork.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was the Minister responsible for those reports at that time, and I have to say to him th...

Lord Freud | 734 c566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I first want to put absolutely on the record that we are not talking about the constant as...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c566 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I simply say that some compelling and moving personal circumstances have been advanced in ...

Lord Rix | 734 c568 (Link to this contribution) Yes, at this hour of the night. I would love to have further discussion, if it is humanly possible, ...

Lord Freud | 734 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me go through the approach we are planning to take in PIP. It will involve a personali...

Lord Rix | 734 c566-7 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting yet again. The point is that if, as I said, the annual health checks ar...

Lord Freud | 734 c566 (Link to this contribution) As I understand the statistics, they refer to the whole group and we clearly need a system that we c...

Lord Freud | 734 c562 (Link to this contribution) 54FA: Clause 84, page 60, line 21, leave out paragraph (b) Amendment 54FA agreed. Amendments 54G a...

Lord Freud | 734 c562 (Link to this contribution) 54GB: Clause 84, page 60, line 25, leave out from second ““is”” to first ““a”” in line 26 54GC: Cl...

Lord Freud | 734 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) 54GD: After Clause 84, insert the following new Clause— ““Hospital in-patients (1) Regulations may p...

Lord Rix | 734 c563 (Link to this contribution) 55: Clause 86, page 61, line 14, leave out subsection (3) and insert— ““( ) Regulations will prescri...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c562 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister learnt from this that the best way to encourage more sweetness and light is to agre...

Lord Freud | 734 c562 (Link to this contribution) There are some other constraints that I do not think I need to spell out. On the point made by the n...

Lord Rix | 734 c563-4 (Link to this contribution) First, my Lords, I should make a correction for Hansard: it was the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c564-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Rix. I suspec...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c565 (Link to this contribution) In quite a lot of the publicity run in some newspapers preceding today’s debates, there has been—how...

Baroness Browning | 734 c565 (Link to this contribution) There has been a suggestion that people with disabilities adjust to their condition. It is true, if ...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c559 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am indeed reassured to hear the Minister’s response, in particular that an impact analys...

Lord Freud | 734 c559 (Link to this contribution) 54EA: Clause 84, page 60, line 15, leave out from ““provide”” to ““that”” in line 17

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 734 c558 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is also on this amendment and it is clear that we support it. The amendments are, ...

Lord Freud | 734 c558-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to place on record the value that this Government place on carer...

Baroness Pitkeathley | 734 c557-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, speak in support of these amendments. We are talking about essential rights for ca...

Lord Freud | 734 c561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should take the opportunity to say thank you. It is lovely to have some sweetness and li...

Lord Rix | 734 c561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as Mencap has just been mentioned, I would very much like, as president of Mencap, to than...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c561 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I promised the Minister earlier on that if he just waited long enough, sweetness and light...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c560-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the Minister said, we have an amendment in this group that I do not propose to move as ...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c551-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment would ensure that those who are awarded either the daily living component a...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c553 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of the amendment. The case has been very clearly made. The...

Lord Freud | 734 c553-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to take the opportunity to set out our position in relation to people who ar...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c555 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declared my interest as a DLA recipient when I first entered the debate on PIP before di...

Lord Freud | 734 c555 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make the position clear. The difference between us is that we would not want this in t...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c555 (Link to this contribution) The trouble is that by the spring consultation the Bill will be done and dusted and we will have mis...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c555 (Link to this contribution) 54D: After Clause 83, insert the following new Clause— ““Carer’s allowance In section 70 of the Soci...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c556-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments would place the new arrangements announced by the Minister in Committee in ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c557 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is also on this amendment and I fully support what my noble friend Lady Hollins ha...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for some of the reassurances that he has offered tonight. He has, once again, m...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c549 (Link to this contribution) 51: Clause 80, page 58, line 30, leave out ““6”” and insert ““3””

Lord Freud | 734 c528 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to debate where alternative cuts would be found by the Opposition if they we...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, shall be brief because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, has said, the Minister...

Lord Freud | 734 c550 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I tried to rise to speak earlier because my name is added to this group of amendments tabl...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c549 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, never have I minded less about changing my original speech so extensively, because the Gov...

Lord Freud | 734 c549 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c550 (Link to this contribution) 54C: Clause 82, page 59, line 34, at end insert ““other than by virtue of an award made before the p...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c550 (Link to this contribution) 52: Clause 80, page 58, line 34, leave out ““6”” and insert ““9”” Amendment 52 agreed. Amendment 5...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c550 (Link to this contribution) 53: Clause 80, page 58, line 46, leave out ““6 months”” means the 6”” and insert ““3 months”” means ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c463 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like Amendment 50 debated last week, this amendment is designed to minimise the adverse ef...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c463 (Link to this contribution) 50ZA: Clause 69, page 54, line 8, at end insert— ““( ) Where amounts are re-allocated to local autho...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c463-5 (Link to this contribution) Thank you. The amendment is about accountability. Considerable concern was raised in Grand Committe...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 734 c463 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in order to be of assistance to the noble Baroness, who is seeking to move a very importan...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c465-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 50ZA and will refer to Amendment 50ZC. I very much appla...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c473-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might come to that as I proceed. Amendment 50ZA would also require the Secretary of State ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c472 (Link to this contribution) These examples are very helpful, as is the further fleshing-out of the content of the letter to loca...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c471-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, when we discussed the Social Fund last week, I hope I was able to offer reassurance in two...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 734 c470-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord German, is for or against the amendment, but al...

Lord German | 734 c469-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to concur with the noble Lord’s last sentence, this is a matter of accountability. I refer...

Lord Blair of Boughton | 734 c469 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, like other speakers I support Amendment 50ZB. Very few police officers have not come acros...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 734 c468-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak as a heretic who is even now probably having his burning at the stake prepared by ...

Baroness Sherlock | 734 c468 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to speak in favour of all these amendments and to ask a question about Amendment 50...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c467 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I make a brief intervention to support the amendments, as I did in Committee. Clause 69 is...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c476 (Link to this contribution) 50ZGA: Clause 76, page 56, line 17, at end insert— ““(4) A person is not entitled to personal indepe...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 734 c475-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. They have added some powerful ...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c475 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the local authority will not spend the money on a swimming pool.

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c476 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, is unfortunately unwell today. Currently, s...

Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 734 c476 (Link to this contribution) 50ZE: Clause 76, page 56, line 8, leave out ““personal independence payment”” and insert ““personal ...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c475 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister also respond to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, which I also rai...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c475 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I will write to him.

Baroness Sherlock | 734 c475 (Link to this contribution) I am obviously being very slow. What will the Government do if a local authority spends the money on...

Lord De Mauley | 734 c475 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hoped that I had emphasised that point. A great deal of work has been done with local au...

Lord Wigley | 734 c475 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister intend to respond to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord German, with regard ...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c477-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 50ZGA, I shall speak also to Amendment 56ZC, the purpose of which is t...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 734 c479 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and I have amendments in this group. Our noble friend Lady Mea...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c481 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that there are a lot of people who are very worried about this shift? The r...

Lord Freud | 734 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) I accept that there are concerns but one has to stand back. We are spending £12 billion on PIP in re...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have strong sympathy with these amendments, spoken to so effectively by the noble Baron...

Lord Freud | 734 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome these amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Lord,...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c483 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for contributing to this...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c483 (Link to this contribution) 50ZGB: Clause 77, page 56, line 18, at end insert— ““( ) A person is entitled to the daily living co...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 734 c482 (Link to this contribution) If the amendments which the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and I have tabled would be more restrictive, doe...

Lord Freud | 734 c482 (Link to this contribution) This is a framework Bill. There is a lot of potential flexibility as we set up the regulations, part...

Baroness Wilkins | 734 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly support the amendment, which has the support of many disability organisations a...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 734 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak just briefly on this. It seems to me that the importance of this amendment ha...

Lord Wigley | 734 c486 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before the Minister gets up—I am sorry I did not get in before the noble Lord on the Oppos...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c486 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had also meant to rise to speak a bit earlier. I, too, very much support what has been s...

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville | 734 c487 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to intervene, but are things said subsequent to the Minister sitting down clari...

Lord Freud | 734 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by picking up the point that the lower rate is being thrown out so everyone on the...

Baroness Browning | 734 c488 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend. On the point about scarce resources, I think we all underst...

Lord Freud | 734 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two answers to that question. The first is that people who need the support because...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c489 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. I have to say that I am disappointed. I am also con...

Countess of Mar | 734 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, in her amendment. I read the whole...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 734 c495 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly on this amendment. The comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning...

Baroness Wilkins | 734 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment, which seeks to ensure that the assessment for the new entitlement...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c494 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, for her honest and enlightening contribution. I...

Baroness Browning | 734 c490-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the first time I have contributed on Report. I declare my interest as vice-preside...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c493 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that was a most moving contribution from the noble Baroness. I think we were all very touc...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c489 (Link to this contribution) 50ZH: Clause 77, page 56, line 21, after ““condition”” insert ““and the social, practical and enviro...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the issue of the social model of disability was discussed at some great length in Committe...

Lord Freud | 734 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, let me start by referring to the moving speech made by my noble friend Lady Browning. I co...

Baroness Browning | 734 c496 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend confirm whether, when people on the autistic spectrum are assessed, there will ...

Lord Freud | 734 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) People will be able to bring anyone with them to the assessment, whether it is a parent, adviser or ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 734 c499 (Link to this contribution) You wait.

Lord Freud | 734 c499 (Link to this contribution) This is about doing the right thing for people and focusing money on them; it is not about playing s...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response. It is nice to know that, even for a short time, I might hold ...

Lord Freud | 734 c500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I feel that I should interrupt. I think that when the noble Baroness looks at the PIP asse...

Baroness Browning | 734 c497 (Link to this contribution) It has been suggested—I hope that this is an opportunity for my noble friend to put this straight—th...

Countess of Mar | 734 c498 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister can answer a question for me. I made a particular point abou...

Lord Freud | 734 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) We are very much trying not to make people fit into boxes. We are not saying, ““Because you have tha...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c500 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and accept that I did not just go through an assessment process. I feel that i...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c500-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a great deal of evidence that decisions are frequently inaccurate when made on th...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c500 (Link to this contribution) 50ZR: Clause 79, page 58, line 4, at end insert ““including a requirement for the decision maker to ...

Baroness Hollins | 734 c509-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of this amendment and Amendment 50B. I spoke at length in...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 734 c510-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, these amendments would improve the assessment process for the new PIP and allay the fears ...

Lord Freud | 734 c511-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I could summarise my speech in about three sentences. I am in agreement with virtually eve...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c503-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 50ZR, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and to which I...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c503 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the importance of this amendment, and of collecting evidence from a person’s healthcare pr...

Lord Addington | 734 c505-6 (Link to this contribution) The amendment on which mine is the lead name also refers to the autistic spectrum. When the noble Ba...

Baroness Browning | 734 c505 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to come in on Asperger’s syndrome again. I know that the Government involved pe...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 734 c507-8 (Link to this contribution) This is an important debate because existing relevant medical evidence is absolutely essential to ge...

Lord Touhig | 734 c506-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not intend to detain the House long, because Amendments 50B, 50C and 50D were debated...

Lord Wigley | 734 c509 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly because time is pressing. We went into this issue in some detail in ...

Countess of Mar | 734 c508-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have difficulty with Amendment 50ZR. I fully endorse the fact that medical evidence is n...

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 734 c515 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask Members of the House to leave quietly, because otherwise the Chairman cannot hear the s...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c514 (Link to this contribution) 50AB: Clause 79, page 58, line 6, at end insert— ““(d) shall not take into account aids, appliances ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c514-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we had quite a debate about the use of aids, appliances and adaptations in Grand Committee...

Lord Freud | 734 c513 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one thing I was trying to get over about trying not to have a two-tier process so that the...

Countess of Mar | 734 c513 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should have said this when I was making my initial speech. About 60,000 people with ME a...

Lord Freud | 734 c512-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a nice idea. I do not think I will make an utter commitment to it here and now but it is a cut...

Baroness Browning | 734 c512 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt again. Can my noble friend give us any hope that when an assessment is calle...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c514 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister and everyone else who has taken part in the debate this afternoon. On...

Lord Freud | 734 c514 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that I have made it absolutely clear that if we write into the Bill that it must be...

Baroness Meacher | 734 c513 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting the Minister. I just wanted to make a point about ME patients, who have...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c518-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to ensure that there is an independent report on the plans...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c518 (Link to this contribution) 50E: Clause 80, page 58, line 26, at end insert— ““( ) The Secretary of State must lay before Parlia...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 734 c516-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment. I have raised this issue with the Minister in private in the past...

Lord Low of Dalston | 734 c516 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment and I have here an eloquent speech in its support. H...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c517-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for agreeing to such a meeting, and for clarifying that...

Lord Freud | 734 c517 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a fundamental principle of PIP is that support should be targeted at those who are most af...

Lord Freud | 734 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the government amendments are intended to support our plans for a sensible, achievable and...

Lord Freud | 734 c559-60 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am happy finally to place in the Bill the Government’s intention to continue to enable d...

Baroness Wilkins | 734 c552-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, put my name to the amendment. I declare an interest as someone who was awarded mob...

Lord Boswell of Aynho | 734 c467-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to raise briefly the question of whether to centralise payments to people in extrem...

Baroness Grey-Thompson | 734 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is designed to complement broader plans for social care and links to the Dil...

Lord Freud | 734 c497-8 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, the system will be elaborated and developed, and we are at an early stage. Although the WCA...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 734 c515-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not going to have another debate here and now about the detail of all kinds of aids a...

Subjects

Disability

Children

Disability living allowance

Care homes

Benefits rules

Carers

Costs

Autism

Community care grants

Hospitals

Finance