Welfare Reform Bill. Lords committee stage thirteenth day. Clauses 75 to 77 agreed to. Clause 78 under consideration. Grand Committee held in Committee Room 4A.
Welfare Reform Bill
Debate on bills
and
Committee proceeding on Monday, 14 November 2011,
in the House of Lords,
led by Lord Sassoon.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
732 c149-210GC 
Session
2010-12
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 75-EN also published.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Seventeenth report on: Armed Forces Bill; Welfare Reform Bill; Scotland Bill; Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill - Government response. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Freud | 732 c188GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, let me start with the numbers. Large numbers are being thrown around about what is meant t...
Lord Low of Dalston | 732 c193-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I realise that I should have apologised to the Committee earlier for having taken no part ...
Show all contributions (129)
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c154-5GC (Link to this contribution)
Before the Minister responds to that, perhaps I may add to the list of questions. A moment ago he sa...
Lord Boswell of Aynho | 732 c154GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, will my noble friend reflect, in conjunction with our noble friend his colleague, that in ...
Baroness Fookes | 732 c157GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have not heard the Division Bells but a Division is taking place in the Chamber. The Co...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
As the law stands, HMRC is giving people less money than the law says that it should.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
Could we have a yes or no?
Lord McAvoy | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps the Minister could answer another question. It might be a bit pedantic, but in a l...
Lord Wigley | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for that answer, but I will pursue one point. He made the point that nobody spo...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
I do not believe that there is any question of the Government being sued. The matter is clearly regr...
Lord Wigley | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that people who had an entitlement under the law as it stood wil...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if the technician who spotted it was not part of the original drafting, he or she is to be...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
It is certainly the case that if the law were not brought into line with what the Chancellor intende...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c151GC (Link to this contribution)
It is worse than that. Money has been taken from people. The thrust of the noble Lord’s argument sug...
Lord Touhig | 732 c152GC (Link to this contribution)
Make hay, my Lords? Some of the poorest people in this country have been denied the support they are...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c152GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I understand it that is not the position. The position for all taxpayers and claimants ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c152GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, if the tax system changes half way through the year, we do not say that it is retrospectiv...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c152GC (Link to this contribution)
The technical position is that what is paid during the year is only an interim award. Of course, HMR...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c153GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I always speak for the whole Government, of course. The first point is to re-emphasise tha...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c153GC (Link to this contribution)
He is of course speaking for the whole Government.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c153GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I was going to start by welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to our Committee deliberat...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c152-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, nobody is being misled because the Chancellor of the Exchequer made the position extremely...
Lord Touhig | 732 c151-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am not clear on this. Are the Government saying that people who had money taken from the...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think we are going much further than this individual measure. This measure is part of a ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
Does the Minister reject the IFS analysis that the tax and benefit changes that this Government have...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
86ZZZG: Clause 75, page 55, line 5, leave out ““personal independence payment”” and insert ““disabil...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
I think we have pressed the Minister enough on this. We ought to let him go, but I do wish that he w...
Lord Skelmersdale | 732 c154GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the members of the opposition party have been waxing lyrical in this particular case. With...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c154GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in the wording in proposed new subsection (2), all that comes close is in the regulations ...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c155GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps it is worth saying that in future HM Treasury will be making a prospective provision for sub...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c153-4GC (Link to this contribution)
It is important that we are reminded of that. This change to the withdrawal rate was one of a signif...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 732 c165GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support these amendments. I also do so with some humility because I have become mi...
Lord Wigley | 732 c164GC (Link to this contribution)
I rise with some humility to follow the noble Baronesses who have moved and spoken to these amendmen...
Baroness O'Loan | 732 c163-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. The proposal to amend Clause 75 by changing t...
Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 732 c162-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would like to speak very briefly indeed in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell....
Lord Low of Dalston | 732 c162GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I give my support to this amendment—the first in a long series that we are due to consider...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c161-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton has very ably described the purpose of this amen...
Baroness Wilkins | 732 c160-1GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I could not agree more strongly with these amendments. As ever, my noble friend Lady Campb...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c157-60GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my noble friend will continue.
At this point, Baroness Grey-Thompson continued the speech...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c156-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to the other amendments in my name in this group. First, I should like ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 732 c167GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have all been very moved by the speeches made by our disabled colleagues, particularly ...
Countess of Mar | 732 c167-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support these amendments. I think particularly of people with fluctuating conditio...
Lord Addington | 732 c168GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise that this is the first time I have spoken on the Bill. Something is occurring ...
Earl of Listowel | 732 c168-9GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support the amendment by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton. I listened with ...
Lord Skelmersdale | 732 c169GC (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that the eloquent and moving speeches we have heard today will cause my noble friend the M...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c169-71GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the proposition before us today is that we change references to ““personal independence pa...
Lord Touhig | 732 c166GC (Link to this contribution)
What’s in a name? I come from south-east Wales where these things are important. We all call the Dep...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c165-6GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may intervene briefly in view of the fact that I arrived at exactly the moment t...
Baroness Hollins | 732 c166-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, have an interest to declare because, as a family carer, I have two adult disabled ...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 732 c166GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with this amendment. I shall get my interest out of the wa...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c174GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope that the Deputy Chairman will not mind if I intervene from a sedentary position, wh...
Baroness Wilkins | 732 c174GC (Link to this contribution)
To follow up on that, perhaps I may press the Minister on press reports. Is his department, or are M...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c173GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I listened very carefully to the debate. Will the noble Lord respond to what I thought was...
Lord Freud | 732 c173GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the point is wrong in the following sense. What we are trying to do with funds that are in...
Lord Freud | 732 c174GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am very sympathetic to that point. The trouble is that when I and my colleagues—and, I a...
Lord Freud | 732 c171-2GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness is seeking to replace the name ““personal independence payment”” with “...
Lord Freud | 732 c173GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will be happy to produce case studies for Report.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c173GC (Link to this contribution)
Could the noble Lord bring back not just definitions but examples? He talked about a ““dynamic”” ver...
Lord Freud | 732 c173GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, we have published the criteria and weightings but have not yet go...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c172-3GC (Link to this contribution)
In responding to the debate, on a couple of occasions the Minister used the formulation ““greatest b...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c176-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to the amendments tabled in my name in this grouping. These amendments identi...
Baroness Wilkins | 732 c177-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment asks the Government to think again about the proposal to have only two level...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c178GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I picked up two points in the course of this debate. First, I think the noble Baroness, La...
Lord Freud | 732 c175GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I cannot agree more. It has not been properly delivered. It has not been a proper gateway....
Countess of Mar | 732 c175GC (Link to this contribution)
The press go to town on people who are living in nice bungalows in Spain on their DLA. Yet, the very...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c176GC (Link to this contribution)
86ZZZJ: Clause 76, page 55, line 15, at end insert—
““(A1) A person is entitled to the daily living ...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c175-6GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the Minister and all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. In fact, I a...
Lord Freud | 732 c174-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the real trouble with the benefit is that it has been so loosely applied that it is imposs...
Countess of Mar | 732 c174GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps the Minister can put out some publicity about the very few people who claim this benefit fra...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there are a lot of things where HMRC starts in practice, and the law, whether primary or s...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will not say that the noble Lord is wriggling—I am looking for a more courteous word—but...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c149-50GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the purpose of the government amendments in this group is to correct an omission in second...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
Does that mean that as a result we have been paying people less than they were entitled to by law an...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, claimants are being paid what they expected to be paid based on the announcement made by m...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c150GC (Link to this contribution)
So I think the answer to my question is yes. In other words, between April and December, HMRC has be...
Lord Sassoon | 732 c149GC (Link to this contribution)
86ZZZFA: After Clause 74, insert the following new Clause—
““Calculation of working tax credit
(1) S...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c189-90GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions this afternoon. I took over the amendment ...
Baroness Hollins | 732 c187GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the second draft of the assessment regulations is very interesting but it does not help in...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution)
In an attempt to stop the Minister having to pop up and down, I think that I am right in saying that...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 732 c188GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, invite the Minister to expand further on the blue badge. Obviously, we have just h...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c188GC (Link to this contribution)
I am very interested in this point and it is exactly what I want to press the Minister on. Earlier h...
Lord Freud | 732 c188-9GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as I said earlier, the history of this is that only 30 per cent of the gain that we have s...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c189GC (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister explain whether the department, having done that, will put everyone on a list depe...
Lord Freud | 732 c189GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords I will pick up the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. I have no figures on how many ...
Lord Freud | 732 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, clearly an enormous amount of work has been done on this within both government and consum...
Lord Addington | 732 c194-5GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the social model is something that anybody who has been involved in disability for any len...
Baroness Wilkins | 732 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, strongly support this group of amendments, which were so comprehensively introduce...
Lord Wigley | 732 c194GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I regard this as one of the most important amendments we are considering because of the im...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I was rather surprised to see that the amendment was felt to be needed. I had thought that...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c197GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise very briefly to support this amendment as my name is on it. Others have explained v...
Lord Addington | 732 c195GC (Link to this contribution)
I did not say that there was no definition, but that it was not presented to the committee in a way ...
Baroness Wilkins | 732 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble Lord for that explanation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, said, it is the G...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c190GC (Link to this contribution)
86ZZZL: Clause 76, page 55, line 18, after ““condition”” insert ““and the social, practical and envi...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c190-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I tabled this amendment truly in the spirit of modernisation. The Minister and the Governm...
Lord Touhig | 732 c205-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I begin by following the very proper example of the noble Lord, Lord Low, and apologise to...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 732 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will be brief as I have not put my name to any amendments in the group, but there is a d...
Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill | 732 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 86ZZA, 86ZA and 86ZB in my name. First I will say a few words i...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c201GC (Link to this contribution)
86ZZZUA: Clause 78, Page 56, line 45, at end insert ““including a requirement for the decision maker...
Baroness Grey-Thompson | 732 c201-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the purpose of the amendment is to ensure that in all cases, as part of the decision-makin...
Lord German | 732 c203-4GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 86ZZZX in my name. I hope that I am pushing at an open door on ...
Lord Addington | 732 c204GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my amendment in this group follows a similar vein but is slightly more specific—unusually ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, these amendments are about encompassing the social model in the Bill. We support them. I h...
Lord Freud | 732 c198-200GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness is seeking to ensure that the assessment for PIP reflects the social mo...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c200-1GC (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for his comments. I particularly thank all noble Lords who have supported the a...
Lord Wigley | 732 c210GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have put my name to these amendments. I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thomp...
Lord De Mauley | 732 c210GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise for intervening in the middle of the debate but I am conscious that it is the ...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c183GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, before the Minister replies, which I assume he is about to do, I will just chip in again. ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c183-4GC (Link to this contribution)
I would add to the noble Lord’s very helpful intervention that if someone who is currently getting c...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
I can understand that; that is where the noble Baroness is more up to date than I am. The Minister m...
Lord Low of Dalston | 732 c180GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is on the amendment. I will very briefly make clear my support for it. Most of the...
Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 732 c179-80GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. In fact, it was down in my name, but when I saw how many a...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c183GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support my noble friend in her request. In order to have a sound evidence base, we are g...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c180-3GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope that by means of the Minister’s response to the amendments we will come to understa...
Lord Newton of Braintree | 732 c178-9GC (Link to this contribution)
I got it nearly right, but it is still quite a lot of people. In that case, my question to the Minis...
Countess of Mar | 732 c179GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Newton, put his finger on the button in his first comments. I...
Lord Wigley | 732 c179GC (Link to this contribution)
If the Minister accepts the figure for those who will lose relatively small sums that are of critica...
Lord Freud | 732 c185-6GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will give a full report on Wednesday, but I have already indicated where I am pretty sur...
Lord Wigley | 732 c186GC (Link to this contribution)
The Minister mentioned a shift in provision. Did he look at the responsibility falling on other peop...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c185GC (Link to this contribution)
If the Minister were able to say, for example, that carer’s allowance will be attached to both rates...
Lord Freud | 732 c185GC (Link to this contribution)
Perhaps I could undertake to do that ahead of Wednesday’s sitting and go through what we are expecti...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 732 c185GC (Link to this contribution)
I think that it would be very helpful if immediately following today’s sitting we have an update on ...
Lord Freud | 732 c185GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the proposition is that we need to have this locked down ahead of the rest of the Bill. Re...
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 732 c184-5GC (Link to this contribution)
This is obviously more a matter for the usual channels. Having just asked that discussions should ha...
Lord Freud | 732 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I regret to say that I am not in a position to say that we will have the implications for ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 732 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords—if the noble Lord will allow me to intervene again—I am sorry, but that really will not do....
Lord Freud | 732 c184GC (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I apologise that the information about the second draft criteria was not available earlier...
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