Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 15 December 2010, in the House of Lords.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. Lords committee stage fifth day. Clause 5: Press comment etc not subject to spending controls, debated and agreed to. Clause 6: Control of loans etc to be permitted participants; clause 7: Interpretation, debated and agreed to as amended. Schedule 9 agreed to. Clause 8: Commencement or repeal of amending provisions, under consideration.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

723 c615-80, 696-720

Session

2010-12

Department

Deputy Prime Minister

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory notes also published (HL Bill 26-EN).
Wednesday, 3 November 2010
Bills
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2011-0057
Friday, 14 January 2011
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord McNally | 723 c654 (Link to this contribution) First, I do not believe that the role of the Electoral Commission is as passive as the noble Lord, L...

Lord McNally | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) I will not promise that this Committee on the Bill will become a drafting committee for a leaflet, b...

Show all contributions (306)

Lord Soley | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) If it was not the Minister, it was someone else and he responded to it. It was the Minister who star...

Lord Grocott | 723 c641-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but the Minister is proposing a referendum which will change the constitution. That is w...

Lord Grocott | 723 c666-8 (Link to this contribution) I will address that point precisely in a moment. I am currently simply pointing out that, in relatio...

Lord Grocott | 723 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment could not be simpler in its objective. It would shorten the Bill, and is abo...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c675 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I understand the argument about administrative convenience and, of course, that argument i...

Lord McNally | 723 c674-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if anything that has happened over the past four hours suggests that I am not enjoying thi...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 723 c714 (Link to this contribution) Parliament is still capable of introducing further legislation to take account of what has happened....

Lord McNally | 723 c630-1 (Link to this contribution) I will leave it to the general public to read these debates and make their own judgment about that. ...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c627 (Link to this contribution) When Ministers consult with political parties about the processes that it might be appropriate to in...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c626 (Link to this contribution) Does not this whole debate point up very clearly the absurdity of holding the referendum on the same...

Lord Bach | 723 c621 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the noble Lord has not seen that since ““Beyond the Fringe””; I saw it many, many ti...

Baroness Northover | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) I have got two ears.

Lord Soley | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy with that. Let me be clear. I was responding to the exchange that took place in whi...

Lord Bach | 723 c658 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall of course withdraw the amendment but this is an interesting point because, as far ...

Lord Rooker | 723 c663 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to prolong this, but this is the result of this place not having a Speaker. In the oth...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) I accept the argument that the noble Lord is putting forward, though there remains the mystery of No...

Lord McNally | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord said, they have a vested interest. I want to make a national decision in the natio...

Lord McNally | 723 c663 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, wants to call me immature, that is part of the rough and tumble of p...

Lord Bach | 723 c663 (Link to this contribution) I give the noble Lord the chance, please, if he will do that—

Lord McNally | 723 c662 (Link to this contribution) More than one person has commented that the Opposition spent overlong on certain parts of the Bill a...

Lord Grocott | 723 c665 (Link to this contribution) 40B: Clause 7, page 5, line 37, leave out subsection (2) and insert— ““( ) A Westminister parliament...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 723 c664 (Link to this contribution) Spoilsport!

Lord Bach | 723 c663-4 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely disappointed that the Minister, who is normally a parliamentarian of the highest orde...

Lord McNally | 723 c664 (Link to this contribution) 40A: Clause 7, page 5, line 34, at end insert— ““““registration officer”” has the meaning given in s...

Lord Bach | 723 c664 (Link to this contribution) Yes, spoilsport I may be, but on the basis of the debate that we had about the issue itself, the pro...

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) It is obvious that if there is a threshold on turnout and you encourage people not to vote, the thre...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) Just to follow up on that important point, what is the evidence that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyd...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend will allow me, let me say that it is not as simple as that. It is not the case th...

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) Well, I will have to check—not that I disbelieve the noble and learned Lord, but I will have to rere...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) It says, though, that that may be different in relation to serious constitutional issues.

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) Up to a point, because I am going to argue in a moment that a threshold will encourage abstention an...

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had only one national referendum. What evidence there is exists because it is eith...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has been listening to his noble friend Lord Lawson, ...

Lord Tyler | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, seems to have shouted, got up and sat down. The iss...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c718 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c719 (Link to this contribution) That may be dealt with by the level of the turnout requirement.

Lord Goodhart | 723 c719 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is it not an extraordinary situation that the effect of what the noble and learned Lord is...

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this useful little exchange has demonstrated why we rather oppose these thresholds on turn...

Lord Grocott | 723 c719 (Link to this contribution) The Liberal Democrats, suddenly energised, have identified a problem that is clearly troubling them....

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c718-9 (Link to this contribution) The issue, as posed by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson—correctly, in my view—is whether or not the thres...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c719 (Link to this contribution) I was not in the Government at the time. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is pointing at me in a rather a...

Lord Rennard | 723 c719 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble and learned Lord tell us what research his Government did in the previous Parliament ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 723 c720 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have had an interesting lesson in politics tonight. I am growing up fast. I thank some o...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c652-3 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Lord agree that the fact that we are debating sanctions in a sense valida...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c653 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree. I find the idea that we should not be talking at some length about authorised pa...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c653 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Lord returns to his question, as he must, did he note that when the out...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c654 (Link to this contribution) The offences under paragraph 8 are knowledge and ought-to-know offences. Can the noble Lord give som...

Lord Soley | 723 c655 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to continue the discussions that we have had other than to close them down. This is al...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c657 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is not the greatest matter before us, but it is an important one and I support the am...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c657 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend makes clear in more formal terms what I meant by confusion. Parliament is indeed one...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) I referred earlier to New Zealand, where an official leaflet explaining the system was provided. Aft...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help the Minister. I attended a meeting of the Electoral Commission in the House about...

Lord McNally | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) I am only glad that my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace was not here to hear of that dreadful o...

Lord McNally | 723 c651 (Link to this contribution) I did not.

Lord Tyler | 723 c651 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am tempted to ask, as the Irishman did, ““Is this a private fight or can anyone join in?...

Lord Soley | 723 c651 (Link to this contribution) I agree with that, too. The problem is that the Minister raised it.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c651 (Link to this contribution) I support what the noble Lord has said. A leaflet describing the pros and cons of different electora...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) This provision introduces civil sanctions in relation to criminal offences set out in Schedule 9. As...

Lord McNally | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) As we drift down this stream, we do, I confess, go into inlets and rivulets.

Lord Maxton | 723 c637 (Link to this contribution) The second part was also credited to Jimmy Maxton at the time.

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) Transparency does not deal with the problem that I am referring to. If I can exaggerate to make my p...

Lord McNally | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) For a start, each of those donations would have to be declared. There you have the conflict between ...

Lord McNally | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) I strongly suspect at the moment—I shall come back and correct this if I am wrong—that nothing would...

Lord McNally | 723 c647-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is reassuring that the power of argument and eloquence still triumphs in this House. C...

Lord McNally | 723 c647 (Link to this contribution) 39B: Clause 6, page 5, line 3, at end insert— ““( ) Schedule 19C to the 2000 Act (civil sanctions), ...

Lord McNally | 723 c649 (Link to this contribution) I am sad to say that not only am I old enough to remember that referendum but I was adviser to the F...

Lord McNally | 723 c649 (Link to this contribution) No, the Government do not intend to produce a leaflet. No, the Government do not intend to rig the r...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c649 (Link to this contribution) Does the Electoral Commission intend to produce a leaflet or anything on the internet?

Lord McNally | 723 c649 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Electoral Commission will publish some guidance on the conduct of the referendum, b...

Lord McNally | 723 c648 (Link to this contribution) These rules will come into force once the Bill becomes an Act. This amendment merely brings the legi...

Lord Maxton | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) In relation to that very correct question, the Minister says that it is down to accountability and t...

Lord McNally | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) Those expenditures are reported on a regular basis. If there was an attempt at such an intervention,...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Lord address something very specific that I suspect will happen? If a wealthy person...

Lord McNally | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) Such expenditure would have to be reported to the Electoral Commission, and it would then be publish...

Lord Glentoran | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) I just wonder if the biggest lump of money that has interfered with elections over many years has be...

Lord McNally | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) All right, we can spend a lot of time on this. I am not going anywhere. If the noble Lord wants to g...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) But is it not astonishing that the Liberal Democrats are sitting in their places and not intervening...

Lord McNally | 723 c642 (Link to this contribution) The straightforward answer is that the question will be never ending. We will always be looking at h...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c642 (Link to this contribution) Of course the Minister is right to say that there will be continuing debate on this range of issues....

Lord McNally | 723 c640 (Link to this contribution) I have taken all those points in. Fortunately—and to my great pride—I do not remember some of the mi...

Lord Snape | 723 c640-1 (Link to this contribution) Whether the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, is tempted to do so or not, I come to the assistance of the nob...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c698 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend recognise that, in the event that one in eight people vote to approve the quest...

Lord Tyler | 723 c698 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Baroness recognise that the problem with thresholds for turnout is that not voting is...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 723 c698 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is right: it is extremely modest. As he knows, I am a very modest person, asking for...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c704 (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in the point that the noble Lord is making. He may recall that the 1979 referen...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 723 c699 (Link to this contribution) I take a lot of responsibility for Chris Bryant. I have known him a long time. I gave him his first ...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 723 c703-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether it is to the convenience of the Committee, but I rise to speak to Amendments 4...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c700-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I raised the question of thresholds at Second Reading and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, re...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 723 c706-7 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, said that I was going to intervene in this debate, I had bet...

Lord Tyler | 723 c706 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we can all cite from what was an extensive speech, but the judgment concerned stated: "““I...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 723 c704-5 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Baroness says and I am sure that she is correct. I had the unfortunate experie...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 723 c709 (Link to this contribution) I made clear the reasons for my argument. My noble friend is right that I quoted only my noble frien...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 723 c707-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is a glutton for punishment. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, will confirm, a characteri...

Lord Bach | 723 c707 (Link to this contribution) I still am.

Lord Bach | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is being unfair to himself. The Lord President of the Council was hardly seen in the Ho...

Lord McNally | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) On the point about Secretaries of State, I think the intention is that those in mind are the Secreta...

Lord Bach | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was trying to be as polite as I possibly could be. One of the dangers of personalising i...

Lord Bach | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) Then I feel much better for that. I still do not see why both positions are there. If the Minister i...

Lord McNally | 723 c658 (Link to this contribution) I think I am now 2-1 up in the interventions of my noble friend Lord Newton; I am very pleased about...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c661 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have to rise in relation to the rather casual accusation made by the noble Lord, Lord Mc...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c660 (Link to this contribution) Can I press the Minister a little bit on his statement just now that the Lord President—the Deputy P...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c660 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might make a helpful suggestion to the Minister to move things on, because we are getting ...

Lord McNally | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) This is about the Lord President’s territorial responsibilities. With the ability of my friends oppo...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) I am a bit confused about something that the Minister said about the territorial responsibilities of...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c662 (Link to this contribution) I did not know what Mr Bill Cash said in the other place but it would help in relation to respect fo...

Lord Grocott | 723 c662-3 (Link to this contribution) This is a Bill of 300 pages—and I do not apologise for repeating this—which plans to change the cons...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c662 (Link to this contribution) I have understood the Minister to say that the interventions by Members of Parliament down in the Ho...

Lord McNally | 723 c665 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord has brought an entirely new atmosphere to the debate for which I am most ...

Lord McNally | 723 c664 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if, when he reads Hansard, the Member for Rhondda is hurt by my remarks, I will try to com...

Lord Grocott | 723 c668-9 (Link to this contribution) Since the degree to which we are genuine is being tested at the moment, the House will simply have t...

Lord Rooker | 723 c669-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did not really see the significance of my noble friend’s amendment when I was reading th...

Lord Rennard | 723 c668 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord is trying to make it difficult for the referendum to be held on 5 Ma...

Lord McNally | 723 c675 (Link to this contribution) I will write to the noble Lord on that. It seems that one element of confusion is that we are not as...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c674 (Link to this contribution) I take the point in relation to Scotland. That is probably the only place where one can see some log...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c675 (Link to this contribution) If the principle is that the counting areas for the referendum are to be as close as possible to tho...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c672-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a serious and sensible amendment. It would take some persuading on the part of the...

Lord McNally | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that, again, the decision is based on administrative convenience, which is not a dishonour...

Lord Rooker | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps MPs should have a free vote when the Bill returns to the other place. Let them decide; after...

Lord McAvoy | 723 c677 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. The year 1975 was a long time ago. The year 1997 was a...

Lord McNally | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is a master at pious interventions. Members will campaign, make their voices heard an...

Lord McNally | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I accept the argument that there is an overwhelming interest in knowing the resul...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 723 c697 (Link to this contribution) 43: Clause 8, page 6, line 4, at end insert— ““( ) over 25% of the electorate have voted in the refe...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c698 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to trouble my noble friend, but that is an incredibly low figure. Perhaps she will correc...

Lord McNally | 723 c677 (Link to this contribution) The country will know locally. However, we are making a national decision. We are adopting systems a...

Lord McNally | 723 c677 (Link to this contribution) That is a merry thought, but no. We will resist this amendment and we urge the noble Lord to withdra...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 723 c716-7 (Link to this contribution) If I may, while my noble friend is having a well earned rest, let me say that it was not a whipped v...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) She was Leader of the Opposition.

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c715-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, what a most unusual debate we have just had. We had a fascinating history lesson from my n...

Lord Rooker | 723 c716 (Link to this contribution) I have kept out of this debate, but I will give the Leader of the House the reason. It was the resul...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c714-5 (Link to this contribution) I have two points on that. First, the introduction of the referendum in our constitution effectively...

Lord Rennard | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does my noble friend the Leader of the House agree that, if only 12 per cent vote against ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) What happens if only 13 per cent of the registered electorate vote in favour of the change in the re...

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, under the terms of the Bill, yes. But is that likely to happen? The noble and learned Lord...

Lord Lawson of Blaby | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) Sorry, she was leader of the party, but she did not take part. It was a completely free expression o...

Lord Strathclyde | 723 c717 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that just goes to show what happens when you have unwhipped votes. I am sure that my noble...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c711-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are debating Amendment 43, which was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and pro...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c714 (Link to this contribution) I have two points— I apologise to the noble Lord.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c713 (Link to this contribution) First, I was not a member of the Government that put it forward. I think they were wrong not to have...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 723 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble and learned Lord not accept that in the history of constitutional development in this...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c714 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I should have been listening but I was distracted by fabulous information coming from t...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 723 c714 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should make the point again, as briefly as I can. Does he not recognise that constitutiona...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) She has got two ears. I agree with that. I will go on. I am sure that the fact that she has two ears...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c653 (Link to this contribution) I was not sure when the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and the Minister envisaged that we should have this ...

Lord Grocott | 723 c653 (Link to this contribution) I have been glancing through the Bill, because the reference to the crucial issue of the leaflet hit...

Lord Rooker | 723 c654 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend should turn over the page and see sub-paragraph (2) at the top of page 20. That is p...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c654 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to hear the Minister affirm his confidence in the Electoral Commission. Does he repudiate ...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c655 (Link to this contribution) In the same spirit, I think that I misrepresented Schedule 1, and therefore the Minister, because th...

Lord McNally | 723 c654-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall not comment one way or the other on extraneous interventions like that, for goodness’ sake. ...

Lord Bach | 723 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) I can make this point fairly briefly, but it is a point of some significance and I should be gratefu...

Lord McNally | 723 c655 (Link to this contribution) I give that assurance and sincerely hope that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has it on his list t...

Lord Bach | 723 c655 (Link to this contribution) 40: Clause 7, page 5, line 27, leave out ““the Lord President of the Council or””

Lord Newton of Braintree | 723 c657-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of my problems at the moment is that I can hardly stray into these debates without fin...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c657 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend agree that this is significant in terms of proper accountability to Parliament?...

Lord Rooker | 723 c649-50 (Link to this contribution) According to the Bill, the Electoral Commission is going to produce a leaflet explaining the AV syst...

Lord Deben | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) If there is to be a leaflet from the Electoral Commission—I find that idea difficult, because the El...

Lord McNally | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) I think that the opponents of the yes vote are already getting their excuses in. The leaflet will he...

Lord Soley | 723 c651 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as one of the parliamentarians who offer advice to the Electoral Commission wh...

Lord Rennard | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, could I invite the Minister and other noble Lords to confine their arguments more to Amend...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c650 (Link to this contribution) But does the Minister remember that the leaflet that was published had a map of the United Kingdom o...

Lord McNally | 723 c652 (Link to this contribution) We can discuss this under Schedule 1 to the Bill.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c633 (Link to this contribution) Of course it is independent. That is how it was set up. I intervened earlier with a comment about th...

Lord Rennard | 723 c633 (Link to this contribution) On a point of clarification, does the noble Lord accept that the Electoral Commission is absolutely ...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c634 (Link to this contribution) No one is suggesting that the Electoral Commission is not to be trusted. The question is whether the...

Lord McNally | 723 c634 (Link to this contribution) The answer has to be yes, as if we did not have that confidence in the Electoral Commission we would...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c634 (Link to this contribution) As my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, have rather compelling...

Lord McNally | 723 c633-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the question of how these rules are applied, I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont...

Lord McAvoy | 723 c636 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, briefly, the very point that my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has mentioned is the on...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c636 (Link to this contribution) I will ask a very simple question, to which I am sure there is a very simple answer. It is about lim...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 723 c634-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this because I spoke rather a lot the other day, which resu...

Lord McNally | 723 c634 (Link to this contribution) Part of the debate is how much the changes need to be made. We believe that they do not and that the...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c636-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is proving to be a most illuminating debate. When the Minister replies, can he illumi...

Lord McNally | 723 c637 (Link to this contribution) I know a little Labour Party history. It was Jimmy Maxton, not Jimmy Thomas, who said that. The nobl...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister reply to a specific question so that we have on the record exactly what will stop ...

Lord McNally | 723 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) However, I am not trying to ride two horses at once. We are saying that we are confident that the pr...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) In other words, the Minister is conceding that money can influence this referendum campaign. He is s...

Lord McNally | 723 c638 (Link to this contribution) Reductio ad absurdum, of course, wins many arguments, but many of the problems that have been raised...

Lord Snape | 723 c643 (Link to this contribution) Then I can only congratulate the noble Lord on the quality of his advice.

Lord McNally | 723 c643 (Link to this contribution) And this one says, ““Have a go at Rooker, while you are at it””. I will take away this issue of the ...

Lord Snape | 723 c643 (Link to this contribution) What did the advice say?

Lord McNally | 723 c643 (Link to this contribution) It says, ““Be rude to Snape, it always wins the House over””.

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c648 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I detect some inconsistency in the Minister. He is using this legislation to introduce new...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c643-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is important to identify what we are trying to achieve here. I think everybody in this ...

Lord McNally | 723 c643 (Link to this contribution) It was not forensically identified. It was suggested that there are ill-defined millionaires wanderi...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c642 (Link to this contribution) Not every threat; but this is a specific abuse that was forensically identified by the noble Lord, L...

Lord McNally | 723 c648-9 (Link to this contribution) The civil sanctions in relation to the referendum will not apply until this Act is passed. The civil...

Lord Gilbert | 723 c649 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord McNally, is probably too young to remember the referendum of 1975, which was sh...

Lord Maxton | 723 c649 (Link to this contribution) Like my noble friend Lord McAvoy, I was part of the no campaign in the 1975 referendum. I remember t...

Lord Soley | 723 c648 (Link to this contribution) May I ask for clarity? I found the Minister’s comments confusing. He seemed to be saying that, becau...

Lord Soley | 723 c648 (Link to this contribution) I understood the Minister to say—maybe I got this wrong—that the civil sanctions were not ready beca...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) We are not talking about an extreme and highly unlikely possibility; we are talking about the possib...

Lord McNally | 723 c639 (Link to this contribution) Because I think that they suspect bogus arguments when they see them.

Lord McNally | 723 c642 (Link to this contribution) But if the Opposition, or even my noble friend, are putting forward hypothetical threats to the fair...

Lord McNally | 723 c641 (Link to this contribution) I am sure they are of concern. How we govern referendums and finance political parties will rightly ...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c640 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord also take into account the fact that a general election was not held on the same...

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c641 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for intervening before my noble friend speaks; I do not want to encourage anything that ...

Lord Rennard | 723 c640 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister agree that the referendums for setting up the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh As...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 723 c698 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the amendment is exceptionally modest. My fear is that, without even this as a backsto...

Lord McAvoy | 723 c698 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend answers the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, perhaps she could consider, in doing so, ...

Lord Williamson of Horton | 723 c699-700 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, noble Lords cannot imagine how pleased I am to see the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kent...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c706 (Link to this contribution) I have read the Hansard of the whole of that debate. It is clear that the decision that my honourabl...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c705-6 (Link to this contribution) I want to intervene only briefly, because I want to speak later on the whole question of thresholds ...

Lord Geddes | 723 c705 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may assist the Committee if I intervene at this point. I acknowledge that of course it ...

Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 723 c709 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend agree that the noble friends to whom he referred had one thing in common beyond...

Lord McNally | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) If there was to be anything specifically territorial, the Secretary of State could take responsibili...

Lord Bach | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) So, for England, is it the Lord President of the Council?

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c659 (Link to this contribution) Could the answer be that there is some concern among those involved in the ““pro”” campaign that the...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 723 c658 (Link to this contribution) Only in the nicest possible way.

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c661 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend agree also that the fact that the Bill has been added to on such a massive scal...

Lord Soley | 723 c660-1 (Link to this contribution) I would not have intervened again, except for the way that the Minister addressed his last comment. ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c661-2 (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend sits down, I refer him to column 843 of House of Commons Hansard of 2 Novembe...

Lord McNally | 723 c660 (Link to this contribution) I have been around Whitehall and Westminster only for about 40 years, but during the whole of that t...

Lord Rooker | 723 c660 (Link to this contribution) When I took this Bill on holiday to read in the summer, it was 153 pages. When it arrived in this Ho...

Lord Rooker | 723 c662 (Link to this contribution) Say sorry to Chris, then.

Lord McNally | 723 c662 (Link to this contribution) I have been around this Parliament for 40 years and I do not need lectures from the noble and learne...

Lord Bach | 723 c663 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am surprised that my little amendment has developed into the excitement that we have enj...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c664 (Link to this contribution) A drafting point: there appear to be random definitions contained in Clause 7(1). For example, we do...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c664-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be a total brute here, but will the noble Lord write to me? It is pretty clear what...

Lord McNally | 723 c664 (Link to this contribution) As I understand it, this is an attempt to clarify the specific case of ““registration officer””. We ...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c670 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend Lord Grocott. This referendum is to be about the choice of a parliamentary...

Lord McAvoy | 723 c670-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to indicate my support for my noble friend Lord Grocott’s amendment. As a f...

Lord McAvoy | 723 c668 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to raise the temperature again, but nevertheless this point has to be made: does that ...

Lord Tyler | 723 c666 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord knows, I share his view about the connection between a representative and his or h...

Lord Bilston | 723 c671-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support my noble friend Lord Grocott’s amendment. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord...

Lord McNally | 723 c675-6 (Link to this contribution) I stand by the case for administrative convenience, but the fact that there will be a national vote,...

Lord Rooker | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) I accept that. However, the referendum in 1975 was to make a decision on whether the country—I repea...

Lord Rennard | 723 c674 (Link to this contribution) In terms of simplicity for the counting areas, does the noble and learned Lord not accept that in Sc...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c672 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I briefly intervene to raise something that has not yet been raised. It is to do with the ...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord really saying that it does not matter whether Members of Parliament hear the voice...

Lord Rooker | 723 c676 (Link to this contribution) Of course it is. Therefore, people are entitled to know at a local level. While the noble Lord is on...

Lord McNally | 723 c677 (Link to this contribution) It is for the convenience of the electorate.

Lord Grocott | 723 c678 (Link to this contribution) I would have thought that the convenience of the electorate and certainly respect for the electorate...

Lord McNally | 723 c696-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this clause is an interpretation clause, although it provoked some interesting debates on ...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 723 c697 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by saying that I should like to de-group Amendment 44. I apologise to those Member...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c677 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask a question which is very relevant. For a moment, the Minister obviously felt that ...

Lord Grocott | 723 c677 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, any neutral observer would say that this is a simple and straightforward proposition that ...

Lord Grocott | 723 c709-10 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree wholeheartedly with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said, except in o...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c710-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am conscious of the time but I would like to say a few words because I think this is one...

Lord Rennard | 723 c713 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord is a very distinguished member of the previous Government, who brought fo...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c615-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I will wait for those people to leave who are, disappointingly, not staying for th...

Lord Grocott | 723 c616-7 (Link to this contribution) My noble and learned friend has more experience of reading these Electoral Commission reports than I...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 723 c618 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend has sent my mind even further back. Was it not the case that she, I and the late Joh...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c617-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister cast his mind back to the 1979 referendum on the Scotland and Wales Bill...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c617 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment because it is vital that we have a level playing field wherever po...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c617 (Link to this contribution) First, I agree with the premise on which the question is based; when the Electoral Commission oppose...

Lord McAvoy | 723 c619-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment of my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench. I shall s...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c619 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer’s amendment. The need for it reflects in part th...

Lord Soley | 723 c618-9 (Link to this contribution) I think that my noble friend should arrange a special showing of that election broadcast in the Hous...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c618 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend brings back even more painful memories, because also taking part in that election br...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c615 (Link to this contribution) 39AA: Clause 5, page 3, line 42, after ““a”” insert ““referendum campaign””

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c633 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister comment, at least for my benefit, on one aspect of what the noble and learned Lord...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c631-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish this was as simple as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said. T...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c630 (Link to this contribution) A little while ago, Members intervening from this side said quite reasonably that they were not tryi...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c631 (Link to this contribution) 39AC: Clause 6, page 4, line 3, after ““15A”” insert ““and as if the Schedule set out in Schedule (L...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c629 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to press the noble Lord further but I know of a scenario in 1979 where some business lead...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 723 c629 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord seeks to answer that question, this debate has got to a stage where people see...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 723 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) Do we not need to learn the lesson from, for example, the referendum on a regional assembly in the n...

Lord Maxton | 723 c630 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, mentioned the internet. Perhaps I may give an example to fo...

Lord McNally | 723 c629 (Link to this contribution) The Electoral Commission has very clear rules. We have laws about electoral expenses. If there were ...

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 723 c629 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not seeking to make this an even more protracted discussion but the intervention of t...

Lord McNally | 723 c629 (Link to this contribution) This is a piece of legislation for this Parliament. We are in contact with both the Scottish Parliam...

Lord McNally | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I do not know. That would really stump us. I would probably have to go and ask the noble Lord, Lord ...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I am in no way seeking to be obstructive but what is the current view of the Scottish Parliament and...

Lord McNally | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised. The Bill has been through the House of Commons and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I asked the question because I knew the answer. My noble friend Lord Maxton said, ““Don’t ask a ques...

Lord McNally | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I may have failed to convince the noble Lord, but we are going to do so on the basis of existing leg...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I am slightly confused about the reply that the Minister gave to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savou...

Lord Snape | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) Regrettably the Labour Party is not in government; he and his colleagues are. It is a simple questio...

Lord McNally | 723 c627 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely clean. The problem about this, and the reason we are having such difficulty in convincing...

Lord Snape | 723 c627-8 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister be more specific? He has called upon, so he says, the best brains in the Liberal De...

Lord McNally | 723 c628 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the noble Lord looks at the 2000 Act. The schedules are mostly based on existing law....

Lord McNally | 723 c626 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that, but that gives the opportunity for another intervention.

Baroness Corston | 723 c626 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister right to say that the 1975 referendum on what was then the Common Market was held on...

Lord McNally | 723 c626-7 (Link to this contribution) I did not say that it was in Scotland. As my noble friend just reminded me, the London elections wer...

Lord Maxton | 723 c626 (Link to this contribution) In that case, as the noble Lord agrees that it was not the 1975 referendum, which specific referendu...

Lord McNally | 723 c627 (Link to this contribution) I have every confidence that those in government know how to consult the political parties they come...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c627 (Link to this contribution) I am not trying to delay matters; I really would like to know how this works. The noble Lord said th...

Lord McNally | 723 c625-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions. The principle is that the clause was inserted in ...

Lord Maxton | 723 c625 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is the first time that I have spoken in these debates. On the day on which we celebra...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c625 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I indicated in my remarks on the first group of amendments that I proposed to Clause 5 tha...

Lord McNally | 723 c626 (Link to this contribution) I do not mind the constant argument about how people are going to be confused by this, but one lesso...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 723 c624 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I did put the Question that Clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 723 c625 (Link to this contribution) The question about the internet is very important. Following on from the noble Lord’s point, can the...

Lord Lipsey | 723 c625 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise briefly to ask a further question to which I hope the Minister will address himself...

Lord Snape | 723 c624 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may detain the Minister and the House for just a couple of minutes on the clause stand par...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c624 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry about that. What is the process within the department? The noble Lord will take back the ...

Lord Tordoff | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord forgive me? It seems to me that at the moment we do not have a Motion before the...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c624 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that I could not hear what the noble Lord said, but I am sure that I will be kept in orde...

Lord McNally | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) That is perfectly right.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for all the interventions. I am also grateful to the noble and learned Lord,...

Lord Brabazon of Tara | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Question is that Clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

Lord Campbell-Savours | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord McNally, a question. I am not seeking to delay. ...

Lord Wills | 723 c622 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I am baffled by the Minister’s position. Perhaps that is what he intends. Will he c...

Lord McNally | 723 c622 (Link to this contribution) That is quite right and we would deal with it. However, I am suggesting that we have discussions abo...

Lord Swinfen | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend confirm for me that, if this matter is decided on a Division, the noble and lear...

Lord McNally | 723 c623 (Link to this contribution) It is because I want to be able to discuss this, look at its implications and try and get it right. ...

Lord Davies of Coity | 723 c622 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask a question. The Minister said that he would have to resist the amendment if it was...

Lord McNally | 723 c622 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I cannot do that. I am offering to talk very seriously about this. I say in a stric...

Lord Mackay of Clashfern | 723 c622 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is worth noting that the clause referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falcone...

Lord McNally | 723 c621-2 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that that intervention has been noted. Indeed, I am looking forward to an e-mail on Monday...

Lord Falconer of Thoroton | 723 c622 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord is saying to me, ““In principle I agree about the problem that you have identified...

Lord McNally | 723 c621 (Link to this contribution) We all know that the final line of the ““Beyond the Fringe”” sketch was, ““But neither should this b...

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 723 c621 (Link to this contribution) Could the noble Lord, Lord McNally, be doubly helpful? It occurred to me as the debate was taking pl...

Lord McNally | 723 c620-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for bringing forward this amen...

Lord Grocott | 723 c620 (Link to this contribution) The two amendments relate to an extremely important part of this Bill. The Government were obviously...

Subjects

Constituencies

Alternative vote

Broadcasting

Costs

Finance

Expenditure

Electoral Commission

General elections

Northern Ireland

Northern Ireland Assembly

National Assembly for Wales