Coroners and Justice Bill. Lords report stage first day.
Coroners and Justice Bill
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
713 c709-62,783-802
Session
2008-09
Legislative stage
Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Proceeding contributions
Lord Bach | 713 c746 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 9: Determinations and findings by jury
Amendment 14
14: Clause 9, page 5, line 20, leave ou...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c751 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment and I wish to give support to what the noble Lord, L...
Show all contributions (119)
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c750-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we move now to another part of the Bill which addresses the outcome of investigations. I r...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c749 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 10: Determinations and findings to be made
Amendment 16
16: Clause 10, page 5, line 38, lea...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c749 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I welcome the statement from the Minister that we have finally achieved a right to legal a...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c749 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as my name is attached to this amendment, perhaps I may echo the words of the noble Lord, ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c749 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I simply want to say what a sensible intervention that was from the Minister. I greatly we...
Lord Bach | 713 c748-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hope that the House will forgive me if I rise at this stage. I have spoken to the noble ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c746-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment has the support of the Criminal Justice Alliance, which represents some 30 o...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c746 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 15
15: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
"Publicly funded legal representa...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c746 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I agree.
Amendment 13 agreed.
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c746 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I raised these issues in Committee and I am very grateful that the Government have listene...
Lord Craig of Radley | 713 c745 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the Minister spelt out a number of safeguards available to the Chief Coroner and to relati...
Lord Craig of Radley | 713 c745 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 8
8: Clause 7, page 4, line 31, leave out second "or"
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c745-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the House will recall that in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, tabled a...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c745 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 8: Assembling a jury
Amendment 13
13: Clause 8, page 5, line 2, leave out "six, seven, eigh...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am merely asking whether the Minister has seen sufficient evidence to lead him to believ...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c744-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, and to all those who have taken part in the d...
Lord Bach | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, there are tens of tens of deaths from natural causes of those in custody per year. Our arg...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
Coming back to deaths in prison, can the Minister give us examples of where there have had to be inq...
Lord Bach | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
We argue that, for natural deaths in custody, there should not necessarily have to be a jury in ever...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
I am asking whether there should be a jury because of the nature of being a prisoner.
Lord Bach | 713 c743 (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, in the Bill we are adding to the list of cases in which an inquest with a jury s...
Lord Mayhew of Twysden | 713 c743 (Link to this contribution)
I have a question about Amendment 6. If I heard the Minister aright, he said that there was no groun...
Lord Bach | 713 c740-3 (Link to this contribution)
I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on his promotion to vice-chairman of JUSTICE, i...
Lord Bach | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
I agree with the noble Lord: of course there is a difference between prison and hospital. We are say...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 713 c743-4 (Link to this contribution)
Let me just finish the point; the Minister will demolish it, because he obviously thinks that I have...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 713 c743 (Link to this contribution)
As I heard him, the Minister was objecting to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotha...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c793-4 (Link to this contribution)
It may be in the best interests of the House if I give the Government’s response now. The amendment ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 713 c792 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Government for having incorporated in the Bill something that I think is absolutely esse...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c792 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, thank the Minister, who has responded not only positively and constructively but in some det...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c792-3 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment introduces short death certificates, which omit the cause of death, to be used alongsi...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 713 c790 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister for his extensive reply and for those extensive discussions befor...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c787-90 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for again raising this area of ...
Lord Bach | 713 c791-2 (Link to this contribution)
This group of government amendments places on a statutory footing the separate posts of the national...
Lord Bach | 713 c790-1 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 35
35: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—
"National Medical Examiner
(1) T...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c786-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for introducing a very imp...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 713 c783-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 33. Amendment 32 is in keeping with the Government’s desir...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c785-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I rise to support to support the two amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay ...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 713 c783 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 14: Post-mortem examinations
Amendment 32
32: Clause 14, page 7, line 31, at end insert—
"(...
Lord Bach | 713 c759-61 (Link to this contribution)
The amendments in the name of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, concern the scope of the Bill’...
Lord Craig of Radley | 713 c761-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this. I remind the House that I raised this issu...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c759 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we were somewhat surprised that the definition of active service was taken from the defini...
Lord Henley | 713 c758-9 (Link to this contribution)
I support the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, whose amendments we are discussing, alon...
Lord Craig of Radley | 713 c756-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 28, I shall also speak to Amendments 29 and 30 in my name and in that ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 713 c756 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 12: Investigation in Scotland
Amendment 28
28: Clause 12, page 6, line 13, leave out from "...
Lord Henley | 713 c754-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I cannot add much to what the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has said. The noble Baroness, La...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c755 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Schedule 1 provides for the suspension of a coroner’s investigation. It allows for coroner...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c755 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps the Minister could explain—to me at least, because I have not understood—the basis...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c755 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we have changed the word, as I understand it, because we want the test to be that little b...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c755-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, in the number of our earlier arguments and discussions in your Lordships’ House—for exampl...
Lord Bach | 713 c756 (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 21 to 23
21: Schedule 1, page 120, line 30, after "if" insert "(a)"
22: Schedule 1, pa...
Lord Bach | 713 c756 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 27
27: Schedule 1, page 124, line 1, leave out "six" and insert "seven"
Amendment 27 agr...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c754 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the provisions on coroners, investigation anonymity orders, witness anonymity orders and t...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c754 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment relates to the part of Schedule 1, on page 120, that largely replicates Sect...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c754 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 19
19: Schedule 1, page 120, line 11, leave out "an exceptional" and insert "a good"
Lord Alderdice | 713 c752-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the emphasis is on the word "determine" whereas the problem in the clause is the word "app...
Lord Bach | 713 c753 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not think that we are attempting to change the law in this regard. This is what the l...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c752 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I once appeared in a case in which the coroner’s jury sent my client to the assizes on a m...
Lord Bach | 713 c752 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I imagine that it was also quite a moment for his counsel. The case that I was going to re...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c754 (Link to this contribution)
Schedule 1: Duty or power to suspend or resume investigations
Amendment 18
18: Schedule 1, page 11...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c753 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall give the Minister an example. In my part of the world, the coroner frequently retu...
Lord Bach | 713 c753 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the problem with going further than that and making some kind of determination of civil li...
Lord Bach | 713 c752 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken. We are concerned that these amendments might...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c751-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, as always, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, puts a very persuasive case. I appreciate the ...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c800-2 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his hatchet and I am grateful to those who have taken pa...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c800 (Link to this contribution)
Can the Minister clarify where the extra £20 million will come from? Is it going to cost the taxpaye...
Lord Bach | 713 c799-800 (Link to this contribution)
It is much too late to do a proper hatchet job. However, there is a nice irony about this debate—I a...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c794 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful for the undertaking given by the Minister. Clearly an amendment in the terms he d...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c794 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 2: Coroner areas
Amendment 36A
36A: Schedule 2, page 124, line 10, leave out sub-paragraph ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c797-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I wholly support this series of amendments. I find it quite extraordinary that the coroner...
Lord Henley | 713 c798-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, asked for a discussion on this issue, so I offer my thoug...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c794-7 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise for bringing this amendment forward so late in the proceedings but, I suspect like other...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 713 c797 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I very much support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. It is an odd t...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c712-4 (Link to this contribution)
Amendments 1 and 7 concern an important issue in the investigation of deaths; that is, the time take...
Viscount Slim | 713 c712 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may follow up on what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said. I am quite concerne...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c714 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, one normally hears an argument against an amendment from quarters of the House other than ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c709 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 1: Duty to investigate certain deaths
Amendment 1
1: Clause 1, page 2, line 20, at end inse...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c709-10 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 47. I shall not repeat the arguments deployed in Committee...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 713 c710 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I support this amendment but shall not speak at length. I think we sometimes underestimate...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c710-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I added my name to these amendments because, as the Explanatory Notes say: ""The purpose o...
Lord Henley | 713 c711 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I would like to intervene before the Minister speaks, partly because I want to make sure t...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 713 c711 (Link to this contribution)
For the record, I am grateful to those who have quoted me from Committee stage. I would have added m...
Lord Bach | 713 c729-33 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this excellent debate on what is an extreme...
Lord Harris of Haringey | 713 c728-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we should be conscious that there are a number of different strands in this debate. There ...
Lord Robertson of Port Ellen | 713 c725-6 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I am tempted to say, "Here we go again", and suggest that the participants in this debate—...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 713 c726-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps I may say a few words as the one Member of this House who currently sits on the In...
Lord Henley | 713 c727-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would allow an Englishman to comment on this issue. ...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 713 c723-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to the Committee stage, when we had quite a debate on this iss...
Lord Lloyd of Berwick | 713 c724 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I wonder whether, with all her knowledge of this subject, she c...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 713 c724-5 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have not been in contact with the implementation unit. It will take as long as it takes....
Lord Pannick | 713 c725 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, makes some powerful points, if I may respectfully say so....
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c721-3 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, this group of amendments returns us to the use of intercept evidence and its place at inqu...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c721 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 4
4: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
"Information for inquests
In sectio...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c721 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says in this regard. However, it is not simply a matter of sayi...
Lord Henley | 713 c720 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I have a degree of sympathy for the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice...
Lord Tunnicliffe | 713 c720-1 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the amendment would increase the number of Article 2-style investigations if a coroner bel...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c719 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 5: Matters to be ascertained
Amendment 3
3: Clause 5, page 4, line 6, at end insert—
"( ) T...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c719-20 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 3 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. During earl...
Lord Bach | 713 c717-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for moving his amendment. Clause 3 of the Bill provides for the Chi...
Lord Henley | 713 c716-7 (Link to this contribution)
This amendment, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, would inser...
Lord Alderdice | 713 c738 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House save to give support to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham,...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c737-8 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, for much of the Bill so far we have been discussing improvements and additions. Amendment ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 713 c738-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 8, 11 and 12 in my name. The substantive issue is in Amendment 11.
...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c738 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, Amendment 7, which is in my name, would add the need for an inquest jury where, ""a member...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c734 (Link to this contribution)
Well, she has been a member of it for some years, and she chaired it. I would be surprised if noble ...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c737 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 5
5: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
"Amendment to the Regulation of Inv...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 713 c733-4 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, it has certainly been a very interesting debate. I think that we all share certain concern...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 713 c739-40 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham, Lord Thomas and Lord Alderdice, and the noble and gallan...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c753-4 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and to the Minister for his repl...
Lord Henley | 713 c716 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 3: Direction for other coroner to conduct investigation
Amendment 2
2: Clause 3, page 3, li...
Lord Ramsbotham | 713 c737 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 7: Whether jury required
Amendment 6
6: Clause 7, page 4, leave out lines 25 to 27
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 713 c725 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I will reply to that. There is all the difference in the world between now adding the prov...
Lord Bach | 713 c744 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, to have an efficient and workable system, what is necessary? Let us take the case of a pri...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 713 c792 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 36
36: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—
"Short death certificates
The Lo...
Lord Bach | 713 c762 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 31
31: Clause 12, page 6, line 37, leave out from "service"" to end of line 38 and insert...
Lord Bach | 713 c800 (Link to this contribution)
As I understand it, it will not come out of taxpayers’ pockets. It is just the extra cost of setting...
Lord Henley | 713 c718-9 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, I shall make it easy for the Minister: I am more or less happy, and I will certainly not b...
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