Coroners and Justice Bill. Lords Committee stage second day. Clauses 7 to 10, 13, 14 and 15 agreed to. Clauses 11 and 12 disagreed to. Schedule 1 agreed to.
Coroners and Justice Bill
Committee of the Whole House (HL)
and
Debate on bills on Wednesday, 10 June 2009,
in the House of Lords.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
711 c682-734
Session
2008-09
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Coroners and Justice Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 33-EN also published.
Wednesday, 25 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Wednesday, 25 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Murphy | 711 c682 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 7: Whether jury required
Amendment 15
15: Before Clause 26, line 13, at end insert—
"( ) wh...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c683-5 (Link to this contribution)
I rise to speak for the first time on the Bill. I was unable to be present at Second Reading, but I ...
Show all contributions (86)
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c690 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendments in principle. I particularly support the amendment tabled by the noble and ...
Lord Alderdice | 711 c689-90 (Link to this contribution)
My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford has with his usual eloquence outlined the arguments for the ...
Lord Henley | 711 c688-9 (Link to this contribution)
I do not know whether it will be helpful if I outline to the Government the views of the Opposition ...
Lord Dubs | 711 c688 (Link to this contribution)
I support Amendment 17, which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has introduced very clearly. ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c687-8 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 18 would also extend the circumstances in the Bill for inquests to be held with a jury. Th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c685-7 (Link to this contribution)
My Lords, we are dealing with Clause 7, and it is helpful first to look at its structure. Subsection...
Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c691 (Link to this contribution)
At the risk of boring the House, I would like to refer to the debates and discussions we had in this...
Baroness Young of Hornsey | 711 c691-2 (Link to this contribution)
I speak briefly in support of the spirit of all the amendments in this grouping. I have been fascina...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c692-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this interesting and important debate. I will tr...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c697-8 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise that I got the figure wrong. I must have had an earlier figure from when the 1988 Act wa...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c697 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry if I have been more cryptic than clear, but right at the beginning, if the noble Baroness...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c694-6 (Link to this contribution)
I do not have that figure. The noble Lord is arguing for the necessary extension, and I am saying th...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c693-4 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord will remember that when I spoke to this amendment, I said that this is merely the exi...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c697 (Link to this contribution)
As always, I have been stimulated and surprised at the elucidation of the law by listening to collea...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c696-7 (Link to this contribution)
It is interesting to hear the Minister to use cost as an argument against these provisions, when of ...
Lord Bach | 711 c701 (Link to this contribution)
Will the noble and learned Baroness give way? I have listened to the arguments around the Committee....
Lord Neill of Bladen | 711 c701 (Link to this contribution)
When I saw from this amendment the alteration to the law that the Government want to make, it seemed...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c701 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the amendment, which clearly and simply puts back the present situation. To my knowl...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c700-1 (Link to this contribution)
I support this amendment and have put my name to it. I have a concern about the way in which a group...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c699-700 (Link to this contribution)
This amendment was put forward by the Joint Committee on Human Rights and is supported by Inquest. F...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c699 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 8: Assembling a jury
Amendment 21
21: Clause 8, page 4, line 39, leave out "six, seven, eig...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c699 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 18 withdrawn.
Amendments 19 and 20 not moved.
Cl...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c699 (Link to this contribution)
Of course, these would be exceptional circumstances, as the noble Lord will appreciate. To make the ...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c698 (Link to this contribution)
I apologise to the Committee and to the noble and gallant Lord, because I thought we had concluded t...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c699 (Link to this contribution)
Guidance and training go somewhat together. Will the training of coroners in the future be under the...
Lord Alderdice | 711 c699 (Link to this contribution)
Will the Minister help me? I think that I am not the only noble Lord who is slightly uncertain about...
Baroness Murphy | 711 c698 (Link to this contribution)
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 15 withdrawn.
Amendments 16 and 17 not moved.
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c698 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister made the point that the Chief Coroner would issue guidance. It would be helpful if he w...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c698 (Link to this contribution)
I have already commented on the amendments that I put forward and do not propose to repeat them, but...
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde | 711 c712-3 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, support the intentions behind the amendment. My concern relates to military inquests, in whi...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c708-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister and to all noble Lords who have spoken, and I want to reassure th...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c707-8 (Link to this contribution)
I shall not add to the troubles that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has experienced in trying to c...
Lord Pannick | 711 c706 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, understand the force of the arguments that have been advanced by the noble Baroness, Lady Fi...
Lord Neill of Bladen | 711 c706 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, start from the premise that anything proposed by my noble friend Lady Finlay is almost certa...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c711-2 (Link to this contribution)
I added my name to Amendment 25, which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, moved this evening, ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c709-11 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 25 is proposed by INQUEST and places an absolute duty on the Secretary of State to provide...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c709 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 25
25: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
"Publicly funded legal representa...
Baroness Knight of Collingtree | 711 c705 (Link to this contribution)
The very presence on any amendment of the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, normally has me a...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c705-6 (Link to this contribution)
This amendment presents certain difficulties. It would be desirable to have this power available, bu...
Lord Henley | 711 c701 (Link to this contribution)
I am sure that everyone is grateful that the Minister is going to have another look at this, but bef...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c702 (Link to this contribution)
I am interested in the first reason given by the Minister because, going back to my early years, as ...
Lord Bach | 711 c701-2 (Link to this contribution)
I am sorry that the noble Lord has said that. This has nothing whatsoever to do with diminishing the...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c702 (Link to this contribution)
In those circumstances, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 21 withdrawn.
...
Lord Bach | 711 c702 (Link to this contribution)
Of course I will.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c703-5 (Link to this contribution)
The amendment concerns the death of a minor and the possibility of excluding the press from an inque...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c703 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 24
24: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
"Death of a minor: possibility to...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c722-3 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, who moved this amendment ...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 711 c723 (Link to this contribution)
I support the amendments that have been so ably moved this evening by the noble Baroness, Lady Mille...
Lord Pannick | 711 c722 (Link to this contribution)
I support these carefully drafted amendments for all the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady M...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c720 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 30
30: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause—
"Information for inquests
In sec...
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c720-2 (Link to this contribution)
Of course, we are delighted that the Government have decided that Clauses 11 and 12 should not stand...
Lord Bach | 711 c718-9 (Link to this contribution)
I shall try to give some figures. The figures I have for costs for other government departments are ...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c719-20 (Link to this contribution)
I think that the Minister will agree that the thrust of my amendment has been directed towards inque...
Lord Thomas of Gresford | 711 c718 (Link to this contribution)
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, told us earlier today that some 500 inquests are heard with a jury in t...
Lord Bach | 711 c718 (Link to this contribution)
I am not prepared to guarantee it in every case; I would be a foolish Minister if I were to do so. H...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c717 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the Minister for what he has said, but I am not yet satisfied. The issue is not whether in e...
Lord Bach | 711 c718 (Link to this contribution)
We do take the Command Paper very seriously, but it does not say that automatic legal aid should be ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c718 (Link to this contribution)
In that case, would it not be sensible to include my amendment, which would guarantee that that woul...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c713-4 (Link to this contribution)
I shall speak to Amendments 191B to 191D, which are grouped here in my name and that of the noble Ba...
Lord Bach | 711 c715-6 (Link to this contribution)
I very much appreciate the sentiment behind Amendment 101, which was so ably spoken to by the noble ...
Bishop of Winchester | 711 c716 (Link to this contribution)
In the light of the points that the Minister made and of the way that noble Lords have spoken to the...
Lord Bach | 711 c716-7 (Link to this contribution)
May I take away the right reverend Prelate’s suggestion? I have no figures to prove it, but I believ...
Baroness Butler-Sloss | 711 c713 (Link to this contribution)
I very much support the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It seems that there are certainly ca...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c734 (Link to this contribution)
We must leave it at that tonight. I will withdraw my amendment, but will consider further what the M...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c733-4 (Link to this contribution)
Does that mean that the Minister will, at Report stage, be in a position either to bring forward an ...
Lord Bach | 711 c734 (Link to this contribution)
For once, there is no problem. It is just a question of timing and when to do it.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 711 c728-9 (Link to this contribution)
I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. There have been a plethora of constructi...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c729 (Link to this contribution)
Schedule 1: Duty or power to suspend or resume investigations
Amendment 32
32: Schedule 1, page 11...
Lord Bach | 711 c728 (Link to this contribution)
I have spent my career trusting judges, and it has nearly always been the right thing to do. Of cour...
Lord Bach | 711 c725-7 (Link to this contribution)
I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. The amendments tabled by the noble Bar...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c727-8 (Link to this contribution)
Before the noble Baroness responds, would the Minister consider two propositions? The first, with wh...
Lord Kingsland | 711 c725 (Link to this contribution)
It would be not only otiose but rather self-indulgent of me to rehearse the arguments so skilfully a...
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale | 711 c724 (Link to this contribution)
It is puzzling, to say the least, to be having to discuss in this Bill amendments to RIPA to allow i...
Lord Bach | 711 c733 (Link to this contribution)
I am grateful to the noble and gallant Lord. In my letter, I said: ""I fully recognise the disquiet ...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c730-1 (Link to this contribution)
I will also speak to Amendments 39 and 40. At Second Reading, I expressed my concern about the way i...
Lord Bach | 711 c731-3 (Link to this contribution)
I thank the noble and gallant Lord for his amendments and for the way in which he has spoken to them...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c733 (Link to this contribution)
The Minister said, in his letter to me, that he would be prepared to consider some definition of act...
Lord Davies of Oldham | 711 c729-30 (Link to this contribution)
The starting point must surely be that it is entirely reasonable for the coroner to suspend his or h...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c730 (Link to this contribution)
I am most grateful to the Minister for explaining that to me. One of the thoughts behind my amendmen...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c730 (Link to this contribution)
Clause 14: Investigation in Scotland
Amendment 38
38: Clause 14, page 8, line 28, leave out from "...
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 711 c729 (Link to this contribution)
I just wish to probe paragraph 2(6)(c) of Schedule 1. Can the Government explain the thinking behind...
Lord Craig of Radley | 711 c698 (Link to this contribution)
Amendment 18
18: Clause 7, page 4, line 29, at end insert—
"(d) that the death occurred while the d...
Lord Pannick | 711 c712 (Link to this contribution)
I strongly sympathise with the arguments which the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Alton, have adv...
Lord Hart of Chilton | 711 c724-5 (Link to this contribution)
I, too, oppose the amendment. I must declare that for 10 years I was an adviser to the Government, i...
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