UK Parliament / Open data

Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 15 May 2006, in the House of Commons.
Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill. Report stage first day.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
446 c709-818 
Session
2005-06
Department
Cabinet Office
Legislative stage
Report stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill . As amended in Standing Committee A
Thursday, 9 March 2006
Bills
House of Commons
Legislative and Reform Bill. Government Response to the Regulatory Reform Committee First Special Report, with minutes of proceedings.
Tuesday, 21 March 2006
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill. Procedure Select Committee first report with proceedings, evidence (HC 894-i 2005-06) and appendices.
Tuesday, 14 March 2006
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill. Public Administration Select Committee third report with proceedings and appendices.
Thursday, 20 April 2006
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons

Show all related items (6)
Proceeding contributions
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) I was about to resume my place. I shall give way briefly.
Richard Shepherd | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful. I think that my right hon. and learned Friend is being a little too sangui...

Show all contributions (326)
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) I agree. The newly elected Member of the victorious party cannot understand why the entire process ...
John Bercow | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way, and my hon. Friend the Member for ...
Oliver Heald | 446 c744 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that to strengthen the Select Committees, an absolute ve...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c743-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not see—perhaps in the reply an attempt will be made to persuade me to see—that clause 3 answer...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c744-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely. I am glad to know that when we return to the matter, my hon. Friend will press tho...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c742 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the Minister, as I do not think that that can be accepted as an adequate argumen...
John Redwood | 446 c749 (Link to this contribution) I seem to remember that in the ’80s the Government carried out a lot of deregulation and liberalisat...
John Redwood | 446 c746-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pity that so far in this debate on this important new clause, we have had from Governm...
Andrew Miller | 446 c749 (Link to this contribution) I shall not be so churlish as to ask the right hon. Gentleman why he did not do this as a Minister. ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c746 (Link to this contribution) I accept the rebuke. I was going to end by saying that although I do not think that we are going for...
David Heath | 446 c746 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman is being very generous. For the second time in five minutes, I ...
David Heath | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) Yes. I agree entirely. That is plainly the case.
Robert Smith | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) Is there not an important lesson in debate about deregulation and a debate about the effect of legis...
Andrew Miller | 446 c738 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, I was not present on Second Reading because I was attending a funeral, as is recorded...
Mark Fisher | 446 c738-9 (Link to this contribution) I certainly do not want to fall out with my hon. Friend. However, the attention of the House was not...
Mark Fisher | 446 c739 (Link to this contribution) I feel that the hon. Gentleman will be yet another person who will say, ““Oh, but I understood the B...
Oliver Heald | 446 c739 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should have been here on Second Reading, because many people, especially Conserva...
Mark Fisher | 446 c739 (Link to this contribution) There is the problem. Everyone wanted a Bill on deregulation. What they were given was a Bill that w...
Mark Fisher | 446 c738 (Link to this contribution) The criticism was muted. My perception of the Bill’s history is that it was not until a few days aft...
John Redwood | 446 c738 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman checks the speeches, he will find that the Conservative Front-Bench spokesmen ...
Mark Fisher | 446 c738 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his interpretation of his speech, but my interpretation of the deb...
William Cash | 446 c742 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that I intend to make an offer to my right hon. and learned Friend, but the very fact ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c742 (Link to this contribution) Our debate has touched on new clause 17, but I cannot begin to understand it. Having heard reference...
Mark Fisher | 446 c741 (Link to this contribution) There was an air of expectancy that my hon. Friend was about to rise to his feet. We still have a w...
Mark Fisher | 446 c740 (Link to this contribution) It is not for me to speculate on why and I am not sure that it is interesting now. Hon. Members, and...
Pete Wishart | 446 c740 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman have a view on why the Government introduced the Bill in the way that they d...
Mark Fisher | 446 c739 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I am ashamed of myself. As someone who believes in, and who has based most of my career ...
William Cash | 446 c755-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has put the case well from his point of view. Looking at the complexion of this Gover...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c756 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, especially in one respect. The new clause demonstrates clearly to those who...
William Cash | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has put it very well. The principle embodied in new clause 17 is the vital prin...
William Cash | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) I see that the hon. Gentleman wishes to intrude again.
David Howarth | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) I merely wish to ask the hon. Gentleman what aspect of new clause 19 would prevent the repeal of the...
William Cash | 446 c756 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. It is undesirable that fast-track procedures should be regarded as the best way in which to ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c756 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is a long-standing opponent of section 2, in particular, of the European Communities ...
William Cash | 446 c756 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. and learned Friend has made a political point. I have listened to what he has said, as...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 446 c756-7 (Link to this contribution) For the avoidance of doubt, will my hon. Friend confirm that new clause 17 could not be used to amen...
David Howarth | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) I was talking about new clause 19.
William Cash | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) I am referring to new clause 17. If it were incorporated in the Bill, it would confer authority—on t...
William Cash | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) The answer is simple. Without primary legislation, which new clause 17 would constitute—
David Howarth | 446 c759-61 (Link to this contribution) In one of the more arcane Committee debates, it was discovered that the words ““local Act”” included...
Andrew Love | 446 c758 (Link to this contribution) I am forced to intervene in the hon. Gentleman’s long oration. Has he discussed new clause 17 with h...
William Cash | 446 c758-9 (Link to this contribution) Obviously, the hon. Gentleman is a late entrant to the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for North-E...
Speaker | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) Order. This is a wide-ranging debate, but the hon. Gentleman is starting to range rather too wide.
William Cash | 446 c758 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I give way to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love).
Ed Miliband | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) I hesitate to intervene in this debate among what one might call the European trainspotters, but if ...
William Cash | 446 c757 (Link to this contribution) Predictably, there would be enforcement proceedings, infraction proceedings and various other action...
John Redwood | 446 c752 (Link to this contribution) The ill-judged intervention by the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth), who clearly does not u...
William Cash | 446 c751;446 c751-2 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman added the word ““diplomatically”” there. Ultimately, this is a mat...
Oliver Heald | 446 c749 (Link to this contribution) I imagine that my right hon. Friend is aware that amendments that we tabled in Committee, and now ne...
John Redwood | 446 c749 (Link to this contribution) I agree. Of course, it was a Conservative recommendation from before the last election that every De...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c749 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend says that he will vote for new clause 19. Would it not be more cautious to say ...
John Redwood | 446 c749-50 (Link to this contribution) I, too, would like those amendments to be carried. However, I think that I said that it would be chu...
William Cash | 446 c750-1 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) in his remarks. I, t...
David Howarth | 446 c751 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman think it wise that this country should breach the principle of the supremacy...
William Cash | 446 c751 (Link to this contribution) That would be a valid point, were it not for the fact that the only way in which it is possible to a...
David Howarth | 446 c751 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made my point for me. The only kind of procedure available under the Bill is ...
Oliver Heald | 446 c755 (Link to this contribution) I think my hon. Friend will agree that using the order-making power to amend the European Communitie...
William Cash | 446 c752 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to antagonise the Liberal Democrats too much. I am not in the business of laying traps...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c752 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend would not suggest that any of those great measures should be set aside...
William Cash | 446 c752-3 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that my right hon. and learned Friend has now entered into the debate with gusto. I h...
William Cash | 446 c752 (Link to this contribution) I thought that that might get a rise out of my right hon. and learned Friend.
David Heath | 446 c755 (Link to this contribution) It is always worth listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman. I agree entirely with his point about ...
William Cash | 446 c755 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but what I am trying to do is to invoke T.S. Eliot’s famous obs...
Andrew Turner | 446 c753 (Link to this contribution) Is not my hon. Friend being a little incautious in his advocacy of this altogether welcome new claus...
William Cash | 446 c753-5 (Link to this contribution) With respect, my hon. Friend might consider that matter again. The mechanism to enable the constitut...
Oliver Heald | 446 c731-2 (Link to this contribution) All that I am saying is that, at a time when regulations are being made or removed, the role of the ...
Andrew Miller | 446 c732 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that new clause 19 represents progress—indeed, substantial progress....
John Redwood | 446 c733-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is clear in stating the areas in which he does not want the power to be used, but...
Andrew Miller | 446 c732-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. My worry about the Bill is that there have been two steps forward and one s...
David Heath | 446 c734-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) said that the Bill that left Committee...
Andrew Miller | 446 c734 (Link to this contribution) Yes—I could list a number of items. I would like the House to consider giving my Committee or a succ...
David Heath | 446 c735-7 (Link to this contribution) I cannot deal with the right hon. Gentleman’s misconceptions about my party, but when he intervened ...
John Redwood | 446 c735 (Link to this contribution) Is there anything that the Liberal Democrats would like to deregulate under the Bill? I always think...
Mark Fisher | 446 c738 (Link to this contribution) The Government have got into a terrible mess with the Bill, so it is good to know that the new Minis...
Oliver Heald | 446 c727-8 (Link to this contribution) We are grateful to the Minister for setting out the effect of these significant new clauses and amen...
Pat McFadden | 446 c728 (Link to this contribution) I predicted that we would be trading surveys. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the World Bank sur...
David Winnick | 446 c730 (Link to this contribution) I was quite critical of the Government’s original proposals, and I am very pleased that these change...
John Redwood | 446 c729 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that our proposal before the last election of having an annual deregulator...
Oliver Heald | 446 c728-9 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that he wants to trade surveys, but the problem is that our position is getting wo...
Andrew Miller | 446 c731 (Link to this contribution) I want to clarify this point, as the Regulatory Reform Committee, of which I am Chairman, must look ...
Oliver Heald | 446 c731 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy to do that. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Better Regulation Commission considere...
Andrew Miller | 446 c731 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a series of interesting points. On this point, however, will he give th...
Oliver Heald | 446 c730-1 (Link to this contribution) I would go so far as to say that the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Cambridge and my hon. ...
Alison Seabeck | 446 c774 (Link to this contribution) Talking about locks, what seems to be missing in this debate is what the public think. The public’s ...
Rob Marris | 446 c774 (Link to this contribution) Indeed concern was expressed outside the House. I suspect that much of it was somewhat uninformed in...
Christopher Chope | 446 c774-5 (Link to this contribution) I had the privilege of speaking on Second Reading, when I said:"““The Bill is the ultimate guillotin...
Lord Deben | 446 c775 (Link to this contribution) For the sake of people outside the House, will my hon. Friend clarify something? Does he agree that ...
Christopher Chope | 446 c775 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right. Previous deregulation Bills were subject to pre-legislative scrutiny....
Rob Marris | 446 c773 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s argument. As often happens in this House, we like to have it both ...
Rob Marris | 446 c773 (Link to this contribution) I cannot remember whether the hon. Gentleman was present on Second Reading—I do not think that he wa...
Pete Wishart | 446 c773 (Link to this contribution) Is not the truth that the Government were told by the Chief Whip in the Lords that they would never ...
Rob Marris | 446 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) The Government have listened to the arguments. They might not have accepted them all, but they have ...
Jonathan Djanogly | 446 c778 (Link to this contribution) The figure does not refer to the national minimum wage. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Her...
William Cash | 446 c779 (Link to this contribution) In the context of legislative supremacy and the role of the judiciary, and in the context of the Con...
Jonathan Djanogly | 446 c777-8 (Link to this contribution) I declare my interests as they appear in the Register of Members’ Interests. This has been a compli...
Rob Marris | 446 c778 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman mentioned the sum of £50 billion. Quite a large part of that calculation, which I...
Christopher Chope | 446 c775 (Link to this contribution) If that is what the Minister thought, he was right. New clause 19(2) describes the purpose that the ...
Robert Smith | 446 c775 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that we would return to amendment (b), but his words definitely suggested that the...
Christopher Chope | 446 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point that I hope will be reflected in amendments tabled in ...
Lord Deben | 446 c776 (Link to this contribution) Has my right hon. Friend noticed that there is nothing in the Bill to stop the Government changing A...
Christopher Chope | 446 c776 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the House will have the chance to divide on it, but I cannot guarantee that, so I am obl...
Greg Knight | 446 c776 (Link to this contribution) Can my hon. Friend make his position clear on the amendment? Does he hope that the Chair will allow ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c782 (Link to this contribution) The Bill provides that under part 2 the purpose is to remove or reduce any burden—including the over...
Robert Smith | 446 c782 (Link to this contribution) The clause includes the word ““or””. The amendment seeks to replace that with ““and””. With the ““or...
Jonathan Djanogly | 446 c780-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made his point in his own way. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownh...
Andrew Miller | 446 c780 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), wh...
Christopher Chope | 446 c782 (Link to this contribution) Why does the Minister believe that the new clause, as drafted, does not give permission for an overa...
Pat McFadden | 446 c781 (Link to this contribution) I feel that in some senses the ghost of St. Augustine has been with us in this debate. There have be...
Jonathan Djanogly | 446 c779 (Link to this contribution) That sounds like good law to me. The Minister will, of course, tell me if he thinks otherwise. My h...
Jonathan Djanogly | 446 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. We have not had many jokes during the debate. The hon. Gentleman...
William Cash | 446 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) I did not predicate my argument on the basis that there would be infraction proceedings; rather, I s...
Pat McFadden | 446 c784 (Link to this contribution) It is unchallengeable in the hon. Gentleman’s subjective judgment. The interesting point about new c...
Christopher Chope | 446 c783 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister therefore accept, on his own interpretation of new clause 19, that it may well res...
Pat McFadden | 446 c783 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress, if I may. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (An...
Pat McFadden | 446 c783 (Link to this contribution) That is a good try but as I have said, I cannot say on the Government’s behalf that we will accept t...
David Heath | 446 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that he would reflect on amendment (a), and I find it difficult to understand what...
Pat McFadden | 446 c782 (Link to this contribution) We are of the view that the amendment would not make a difference. We will reflect on it, but we can...
David Howarth | 446 c782 (Link to this contribution) The Minister seems to be confused. The point is that under the subjective test in the Bill as it sta...
Pat McFadden | 446 c784 (Link to this contribution) It seeks to go further than our proposals on the European aspects of the Bill, which deal with gold-...
William Cash | 446 c784 (Link to this contribution) As with the arguments—on which at last the Prime Minister has given way—on the Human Rights Act 1998...
Pat McFadden | 446 c784 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman proves my point. I should like to turn to some of the other comments made toward...
Kelvin Hopkins | 446 c784 (Link to this contribution) As I said, all taxation issues can be dealt with in the Finance Bill every year, and there is no rea...
Pat McFadden | 446 c784-5 (Link to this contribution) Here we come to the question of what regulatory reform orders are likely to be used for. My hon. Fri...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 446 c785 (Link to this contribution) Since this regulatory reform Bill has itself undergone considerable regulatory reform so far, will i...
Oliver Heald | 446 c785 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. During the debate, several hon. Members on both sides of th...
Oliver Heald | 446 c784 (Link to this contribution) I made it clear that I should be very interested to hear the Minister’s views on the new clause. Is ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c794 (Link to this contribution) Certainly the merger of regulators is an element of the Bill and is possible under the Bill. One ex...
David Heath | 446 c794 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister explain to me, because I am not absolutely clear about this point, how new clause ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) Having sat through what we have sat through this afternoon, I quite appreciate what the hon. Gentlem...
Rob Marris | 446 c794 (Link to this contribution) Would new clause 20 enable a Minister of the Crown, with the safeguards that we hope will be in the ...
David Heath | 446 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can also be relatively brief because I support new clause 20. I had intended to be eve...
Oliver Heald | 446 c796 (Link to this contribution) Clause 20(3) says that the duty to follow the principles"““is subject to any other requirement affec...
Pat McFadden | 446 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will come back to that at the end of my remarks. New clause ...
Oliver Heald | 446 c795 (Link to this contribution) We welcome new clause 20, which, as the Minister said, is designed to promote the regulatory princip...
Pat McFadden | 446 c793 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. New clause 20, together with new clause 19, w...
Oliver Heald | 446 c793 (Link to this contribution) The Minister may find it helpful if I indicate that we are supportive of new clause 20, and do not f...
Lord Deben | 446 c765 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should not allow the Government to get away with the fact that this is not the fi...
Pete Wishart | 446 c765-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who has great experience in these matters. His words will...
Pete Wishart | 446 c767 (Link to this contribution) We in the minority parties have great difficulty securing places on Committees, so I look forward to...
Alison Seabeck | 446 c767 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman had volunteered to serve on the Committee, he would have been aware that we ha...
Pete Wishart | 446 c767 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I think that I had best move on. We have not heard about t...
Andrew Miller | 446 c767 (Link to this contribution) When the hon. Gentleman is making a bid for membership of the Regulatory Reform Committee, he can te...
Pete Wishart | 446 c766 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. The fact that it feels so much like a Second Reading means tha...
David Heath | 446 c766 (Link to this contribution) It is a Second Reading of this new first clause; the most important operative clause. That is why it...
Pete Wishart | 446 c766 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing my attention to amendment (a). He is entirely right....
David Howarth | 446 c766 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the problem of vagueness and ambiguity in the Bill would be at le...
Oliver Heald | 446 c761 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the provision would add an element of objectivity to the test? It...
Pete Wishart | 446 c765 (Link to this contribution) I think that I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. I will come to his Committee’s rep...
Andrew Miller | 446 c765 (Link to this contribution) It is not fair to criticise someone who is not in the Chamber. My hon. Friend the Member for East Re...
Pete Wishart | 446 c764-5 (Link to this contribution) We come to the House today to watch a rare and wondrous thing; the Government eating a large and pro...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 446 c764 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend knows his constitutional law. It is established beyond doubt in all parts of the Hous...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 446 c762-4 (Link to this contribution) I rise in support of new clause 17, and I wish to speak to it quite briefly, but by way of preface, ...
David Howarth | 446 c761-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I believe that to be the case. In fact, Ministers from different parties could make opposite de...
Christopher Chope | 446 c771 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend extend his comments to amendment (b)? Does he accept that we will not know until...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely accept the point. Again, that reinforces why I will not vote for the new clause until t...
Lord Deben | 446 c772 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that a Government who refuse to include the word ““reasonable”” are sugges...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c772 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has made a brilliant point. He and I have made that point about Governments of ...
David Heath | 446 c772 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Rob Marris | 446 c772 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Opposition Front Benchers for not being here earlier, although I was present for ...
David Heath | 446 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) I make no attempt to justify after the event the position that I took on Second Reading, but I hope ...
Rob Marris | 446 c772 (Link to this contribution) I shall make my point and then give way to the hon. Gentleman, who was present on Second Reading. O...
Robert Smith | 446 c773 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that the former Minister came to the House on Second Reading having been una...
Rob Marris | 446 c773 (Link to this contribution) I recall the hon. Gentleman saying that, but the amendments before us substantially rewrite part 1, ...
Pete Wishart | 446 c767 (Link to this contribution) Could changes be made to the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 and, as my hon. Friend says, the Go...
Kelvin Hopkins | 446 c768 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Minister that I was not in the Chamber at the beginning of the debate to hear his...
Hywel Williams | 446 c767 (Link to this contribution) And the Government of Wales Act 1998.
Kelvin Hopkins | 446 c769 (Link to this contribution) Precisely. Provisions on taxation are misplaced in the Bill. Taxation should be covered by Finance B...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c769 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being disingenuous. Finance Bills provide every mechanism for increasing taxat...
Kelvin Hopkins | 446 c768-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a strong point. Regulations can be good or bad; beneficial or disadvantageous. ...
Alison Seabeck | 446 c768 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a lot of concerns about regulation from Opposition Members, but people in the City and...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c771 (Link to this contribution) No. The effort of the House should go into making a piece of legislation appropriate and correct as ...
Oliver Heald | 446 c771 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend wants new clause 19 to be amended, it has to be passed. Then we would have the opp...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c769-71 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mark Fisher) laid bare his soul by suggesting that he h...
Pat McFadden | 446 c723 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to speak to his amendment. However, new clau...
Christopher Chope | 446 c723 (Link to this contribution) In that case, will the Minister accept my amendment (b), which replaces ““or”” with ““and””, thus en...
Lord Garnier | 446 c724 (Link to this contribution) To some extent, what the Minister has just said is reassuring. However, public services are increasi...
Pat McFadden | 446 c724 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman anticipates the next part of my contribution. If he bears with me, I hope to prov...
James Brokenshire | 446 c724 (Link to this contribution) It is interesting to consider to whom the burden applies. There is a protection built into new claus...
Pat McFadden | 446 c723-4 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make some progress. The definition of ““burden”” in new clause 19 provides the fle...
Pat McFadden | 446 c725 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue, perhaps I shall do that. The Government have a num...
David Howarth | 446 c724-5 (Link to this contribution) On the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier), the central questio...
Pat McFadden | 446 c724 (Link to this contribution) The Department remains responsible for the regulatory function. I am interested to hear that the hon...
Pat McFadden | 446 c726 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have not accepted amendment (b). We may discuss that further....
Pat McFadden | 446 c726 (Link to this contribution) It is clear—it has been made clear in new clause 19—that only Ministers and Departments will be affe...
John Bercow | 446 c726 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He has been incredibly generous and solicitous towards...
Pat McFadden | 446 c727 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how many hours, weeks and months the House spent discussing fox hunting. If the right ...
Greg Knight | 446 c726 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that he has said nothing to alter the fact that new clause 19, even with t...
Pat McFadden | 446 c727 (Link to this contribution) No; I really do want to make progress. New clause 19 and its associated amendments are a response t...
Pat McFadden | 446 c717 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make some progress; I have been generous in giving way. Government new clause 22, ...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c717 (Link to this contribution) If, as I gather, the Minister is moving on from new clause 19, which is the hub of the whole thing, ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c717 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman raised a number of issues. On tax, the Bill makes it clear that...
Jim Devine | 446 c717 (Link to this contribution) I offer my congratulations to my hon. Friend; it has been quite a season. I wonder whether he is awa...
Pat McFadden | 446 c718 (Link to this contribution) There is, of course, the protection of necessary rights and freedoms, which is set out in the Bill. ...
Mark Fisher | 446 c718 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that a burden on one group in society may well be a freedom for another gro...
Lord Garnier | 446 c718 (Link to this contribution) I listened carefully to the answer that the Minister gave to my right hon. and learned Friend the Me...
Pat McFadden | 446 c718 (Link to this contribution) There are penalties in the 2001 Act, which, in some ways, reflect those in the proposals before us. ...
Lord Garnier | 446 c718 (Link to this contribution) The great thing about Report is that one can have these to-ing and fro-ing debates. That is importan...
William Cash | 446 c719 (Link to this contribution) The Minister probably knows what I have in mind already. The omission from, or black hole in, the Bi...
Pat McFadden | 446 c719 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman knows that the Bill deals with us having a much clearer and more simple process o...
Pat McFadden | 446 c719 (Link to this contribution) Not at the moment. The types of better regulation initiatives that the order-making power will allo...
Pat McFadden | 446 c719-20 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not suggesting that at all. If a measure that would do away with a necessary right or freed...
Gwyneth Dunwoody | 446 c719 (Link to this contribution) Of course, I do not have the advantage of being a lawyer, but I am rather worried about what the Min...
John Redwood | 446 c720 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman illustrates why the Conservatives propose a deregulation Bill, which would put on...
Pat McFadden | 446 c721 (Link to this contribution) Precisely because we wish to allow Departments and Ministers the flexibility to propose deregulatory...
Rob Marris | 446 c721 (Link to this contribution) I welcome my hon. Friend to his post. He has made a considerable impact in Wolverhampton, and I am s...
Pat McFadden | 446 c721 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour makes a typically sensible point. I have referred several ...
John Bercow | 446 c720 (Link to this contribution) No. I am terribly sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but his answer to my right hon. and l...
Pat McFadden | 446 c720 (Link to this contribution) If any Minister proposed to abolish taxes in the order-making power, he would have to consult the re...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c720 (Link to this contribution) Let me return to my previous point. The hon. Gentleman is giving a narrow illustration of what lifti...
Christopher Chope | 446 c723 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is talking about burdens, but does he accept that the new clause would increase t...
Pat McFadden | 446 c723 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is the case. Subsection (2) of the new clause states that the"““purpose i...
Oliver Heald | 446 c723 (Link to this contribution) Surely the Minister could just pray in aid the Labour record; it never abolishes taxes.
Pat McFadden | 446 c723 (Link to this contribution) I shall move on, as it would be churlish to mention VAT on fuel and the other taxes introduced by th...
Mark Fisher | 446 c722 (Link to this contribution) While my hon. Friend is on the issue about barriers to productivity, will he return to the point mad...
Pat McFadden | 446 c722 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will have his opinion of whether that would count as a deregulatory measure, but we h...
Andrew Miller | 446 c722 (Link to this contribution) Although my constituents will no doubt be interested in my hon. Friend’s example about game, may I t...
Pat McFadden | 446 c722 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Select Committee on Regulatory Reform, makes a very strong point...
Pat McFadden | 446 c721-2 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress, if my hon. Friend will allow me. The definition of burden relating to...
Pat McFadden | 446 c710 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 446 c710-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment (a) to new clause 19, in line 2...
Pat McFadden | 446 c712 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) for his good wishes. Let me begin by tha...
John Redwood | 446 c712 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Minister to his interesting job. Can he tell the House what kind of measures he will w...
Pat McFadden | 446 c712 (Link to this contribution) That, of course, will be a matter for the Departments once the powers are in place. Huge changes ha...
Pat McFadden | 446 c713 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly what the Bill is about. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a tendency for regulat...
Oliver Heald | 446 c713 (Link to this contribution) I join others in welcoming the Minister to his new position. He will know that each year the Departm...
Pat McFadden | 446 c713 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether the Departments will have provided such lists by tomorrow, but I shall be givi...
Lord Cormack | 446 c712 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome my near neighbour to his post and wish him well. He gave a perfectly reasonable answ...
Andrew Turner | 446 c713 (Link to this contribution) Along with the rest of the House, I congratulate the Minister. Can he tell us, though, whether an it...
Pat McFadden | 446 c713-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it would, because of safeguards and other procedures in the Bill which we shall ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c713 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make a little progress, but I will give way once more.
David Winnick | 446 c714 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate my hon. Friend. As one who expressed concern about the measure because of its potenti...
David Howarth | 446 c714 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the Minister has reached the subject of new clause 19 at last. Does he agree that sub...
Pat McFadden | 446 c714 (Link to this contribution) New clause 19 will outline the focus of the Bill on better regulation purposes. Our subject matter ...
John Bercow | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) I warmly congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his well-deserved promotion, together with the Parliamen...
Pat McFadden | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that the Bill in any of its guises would allow the removal of the right to trial by...
Mark Fisher | 446 c714 (Link to this contribution) Following the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), will the Minist...
Lord Garnier | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Pat McFadden | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) We shall come to an amendment dealing with sunset clauses later in the debate. Perhaps it would be b...
David Heath | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. This is very early in the debate and in his ministerial ca...
Pat McFadden | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, but it is precisely because those fears were raise...
Pat McFadden | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) Orders issued under the new clause are dealt with later in the Bill, but the Minister would make a r...
Pat McFadden | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman’s intervention was worth waiting for. What is meant by that is that t...
Lord Garnier | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) New clause 19(2) states what the purpose of the new clause is, and subsection (5) states:"““For the ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c715 (Link to this contribution) I should like to make a little progress. New clause 19 makes it clear beyond doubt what the purpose...
David Howarth | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for giving way again; he has been very generous with his time. The problem all ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) We will come to that amendment, but the Minister’s initial judgment is not the beginning and end of ...
Pat McFadden | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) Clause 3 contains preconditions that stop the making of an order that would remove necessary protect...
David Gauke | 446 c799 (Link to this contribution) I wish to draw the Minister’s attention to subsection (5), which states:"““An order under this secti...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c798-9 (Link to this contribution) I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman was able to say that with a straight face. As he knows very well...
Greg Knight | 446 c798 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that the new clause is necessary because of changes to the Bill, but why is it nec...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c798 (Link to this contribution) New clause 21 provides a power to implement by order recommendations of any of the UK Law Commission...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c798 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. As Chair of the Procedure Committee, I k...
Pat McFadden | 446 c796-7 (Link to this contribution) On that note, I am happy to offer the hon. Gentleman an explanatory note. Question put and agreed t...
David Heath | 446 c796 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman rightly draws attention to subsection (3), but it only complicates matters furthe...
Speaker | 446 c797-8 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment (a) to new clause 21, in line 4,...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c797 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Oliver Heald | 446 c802 (Link to this contribution) With reference to Scotland, the Minister may be aware that the Law Society of Scotland has pointed o...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to the Government amendments that apply to those categories in a moment. For clarifica...
Roger Gale | 446 c801 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady referred specifically to forcible entry, search and seizure. Does her caveat apply to ...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c801 (Link to this contribution) New clause 21(3) specifies the Law Commission, the Scottish Law Commission and the Northern Ireland ...
Rob Marris | 446 c801 (Link to this contribution) On my hon. Friend’s answer to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), it is n...
Pete Wishart | 446 c801 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister confirm that in new clause 21, the reference to the Scottish Law Commission relates...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) I have no intention of refereeing between parliamentary counsel and the Law Commission to decide who...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c799-800 (Link to this contribution) Subsection (5) does indeed go a long way to achieving what we want to achieve, but it is important t...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c802-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not intend to dance on a pin on the difference between highly controversial and controversial. ...
John McDonnell | 446 c803 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get into a philosophical debate about the angels on the head of a pin, but what cri...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c803 (Link to this contribution) There is no criteria to define ““controversial”” other than according to what we understand in our e...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c803 (Link to this contribution) I would like to move on but I will take one more intervention.
Roger Gale | 446 c803 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. Hitherto in these arguments the Government have discarded arguments ...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c803-5 (Link to this contribution) The argument is not left purely to the Government. The scrutiny Committees will have a view. It is n...
Oliver Heald | 446 c805 (Link to this contribution) New clause 21 would enable a Minister to make orders to implement"““recommendations of…the…Law Commi...
Greg Knight | 446 c802 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a weakness in the argument that it is the Government who will determine whether somethi...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c802 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. Many of the issues that the Law Commission deals with are controversial...
David Heath | 446 c807-9 (Link to this contribution) The intervention from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) drew attention to t...
Greg Knight | 446 c809-10 (Link to this contribution) This is not a party-political issue. It is really a matter of judgment. I have reached the conclusio...
Andrew Miller | 446 c807 (Link to this contribution) In his previous occupation, my hon. Friend spent many a long hour arguing about the meaning of words...
David Howarth | 446 c810-8 (Link to this contribution) In view of the time I shall be brief and add only one point. The importance of the debate is that th...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c810 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the comments made by the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald). I am ...
Greg Knight | 446 c810 (Link to this contribution) I am disappointed to hear that. In the light of what the hon. Lady has just said, I shall be one of ...
Oliver Heald | 446 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) As ever, my right hon. Friend makes a telling point. The advantage of the Standing Orders route, if ...
Greg Knight | 446 c805 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves off this point, will he reflect on my point about Standing Order No. 59,...
Speaker | 446 c818 (Link to this contribution) There is not. Under the terms of the programme motion, to which the House agreed, that cannot be don...
David Heath | 446 c818 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether you could help us. The last group of amendments f...
Speaker | 446 c785 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the debate, and I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is makin...
Pat McFadden | 446 c743 (Link to this contribution) I am not asking the right hon. and learned Gentleman or any other Member to rely purely on my person...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c745 (Link to this contribution) Yes. This place has turned into a legislative sausage machine, and the quality of legislation has de...
Jonathan Djanogly | 446 c738 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman really must read the Hansard report of the Second Reading debate. Both my hon. Fr...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 446 c741-2 (Link to this contribution) May I begin as everybody else will begin by praising the policy intention behind the Bill? I very mu...
Oliver Heald | 446 c729-30 (Link to this contribution) Of course, my right hon. Friend has a proud record in this area. Let us not forget that it was the C...
Greg Knight | 446 c773 (Link to this contribution) Has not the hon. Gentleman just shot his own fox? It is because the Minister made it clear that he w...
Pat McFadden | 446 c782 (Link to this contribution) No, the overall burden would be reduced. We cannot accept amendment (b) because if we did, in the co...
Pat McFadden | 446 c783 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not accept that, but it is possible for the burden on some to go up as a new deregulatory p...
Pat McFadden | 446 c785 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman anticipates amendments that we will reach later in the debate. I shall resist out...
David Howarth | 446 c761 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point. If there were a challenge to ministerial action, it is possible that the...
Pat McFadden | 446 c726 (Link to this contribution) I will give way one more time, and that is to the Chairman of the Procedure Committee.
Pat McFadden | 446 c718 (Link to this contribution) If the Select Committees thought that a Minister was proposing something that unnecessarily dealt wi...
Bridget Prentice | 446 c801 (Link to this contribution) I will reflect on the hon. Gentleman’s question. It is my understanding that the measure will apply ...
David Howarth | 446 c800 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to cast aspersions on the abilities of parliamentary counsel, but I doubt whether they...
William Cash | 446 c764 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend may care to know that one of the most important tomes on constitutional law une...
Greg Knight | 446 c761 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is on to a very good point. Could not a Government of one complexion use clause 3...
Robert Smith | 446 c725 (Link to this contribution) The Minister accepted amendment (b) in defining the scope of new clause 19. Without amendment (b), a...
John Bercow | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) Whatever the merits of the new clause, it does not appear to be comprehensive. May I therefore ask t...
Rob Marris | 446 c807 (Link to this contribution) Would not amendment (b) result in our ending up having endless debates on what ““necessary”” meant?
Andrew Miller | 446 c806-7 (Link to this contribution) Having listened carefully to what my hon. Friend the Minister said, I think that she reflects very s...
Pat McFadden | 446 c717 (Link to this contribution) I was not aware of that, but I will let the statement speak for itself. I will deal with new clause...
Pat McFadden | 446 c720 (Link to this contribution) Clause 5 states:"““Provision under section 2(1) may not impose or increase taxation.””" [Interrupti...
Pat McFadden | 446 c714 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend and parliamentary neighbour for those comments. I very much agree that the am...
Richard Shepherd | 446 c716 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister return to the question that was asked of him about whether new clause 19(3) includ...
David Heath | 446 c798 (Link to this contribution) Why does the hon. Lady feel that there is this long delay in implementation of Law Commission report...
Subjects
Administration
Costs
Business
Delegated legislation
Juries
EU law
Government departments
Legislation
Law Commission
Ministerial powers
Northern Ireland
Powers
Public sector
Parliamentary scrutiny
Small businesses
Regulation
Reform
Trials
Taxation
Legislative reform orders
Legislation
Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top