Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

My Lords, we commence the vital work of this Committee with amendments that address a fundamental...

My Lords, I must begin by apologising for the fact that I was abroad at the time of Second Readin...

I do not understand the argument that the noble Lord is making. As I understand the amendment in ...

I fear not. The easiest way of replying to the noble Lord is to read from the Member’s explanator...

I was referring to the text of the amendment.

I think it is perfectly reasonable, if one wants to know the intention of the amendment, to look ...

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. I want to put ...

Is it not right that Clause 4 of the Bill provides exclusively that members of the judiciary will...

My Lords, that may be so, but I think that the point I have made stands—and I think that perhaps ...

My Lords, I will speak mainly to Amendments 11 and 12 in the name of my noble friend Lord German....

My Lords, it is a hard act to follow so many lawyers here: I hope that my compassion and convicti...

My Lords, I support Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, the noble and le...

I give my support to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, the most...

As I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, it is not simply a question of seeking advice f...

I thank the noble Lord for that point. He interrupted me before I got to the answer to his questi...

I thought it might help the Committee, before this debate with the noble Lord, Lord Howard, rumbl...

My Lords, I do not wish to pursue that course at all. I am not one of the proposers of this amend...

My Lords, I want simply to say a few words in support of Amendments 3 and 7 in my name, and to ex...

My Lords, I briefly want to follow my noble friend Lord Hailsham in his remarks. Had he been the ...

I am another supporter of Amendment 3. Clause 1 is an example of the current vogue for starting B...

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I was unable to be present for Second Reading two weeks ago, bu...

It is a privilege to follow what the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, said, and I strongly agree with ...

My Lords, I was at Second Reading. I do not know if that makes me less interesting to listen to t...

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I had the privilege of servi...

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for giving way. He has just referred to international agreeme...

I am grateful to the noble Baroness; I was not intending to touch on Northern Ireland, but she is...

My Lords, I welcome the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the tone of this debate, ...

My Lords, this has been a long debate and I shall therefore be extremely brief. The right reveren...

My Lords, I wish to speak to this group of amendments; I apologise to the Committee that I could ...

I think the majority of those who have spoken have apologised for not being here at Second Readin...

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests, in that I am supported by the Refugee, Asylum and Mig...

I think the noble Lord means “outsourcing”, and it is precisely what the Australians do.

Indeed: what the Australians did was to check whether people were ready to come to Australia.

They handed that responsibility over to the Government of Nauru and the Solomon Islands.

No, they did not. I am sorry, but the facts are otherwise. The essential point is that they were ...

My Lords, it is a great privilege to wind up on this group for His Majesty’s Opposition. The qual...

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. The overriding purpose of the Bi...

On that point, would my noble friend consider a domestic assessor—for example, the Joint Committe...

My Lords, one of the groups that we are coming on to looks at the organisations and committees th...

Clause 1(2)(b) says that Rwanda is a safe country, so why is Clause 1(3) necessary?

Clause 1(3) is just a simple restatement of the various facts of the Bill.

My Lords, the noble Lord has rather disappointed me, because he declined totally to address any o...

My Lords, this is Committee, and I am speaking to the various amendments in this group. As I have...

My Lords, I know it is very boring, but could the Minister respond to my question about the legal...

My Lords, it is simply the introduction to the Bill, so I am not entirely sure I get the drift of...

My Lords, before the noble Lord concludes, can he say whether he will be formally responding to t...

I have not yet had a chance to read the report, which I believe was published only today, but I w...

My Lords, the Minister seems to rely on the emergency transit mechanism on which Rwanda works wit...

My Lords, I do not rely on that at all. As I tried to explain, a variety of aspects of the UNHCR’...

I apologise for interrupting, because I know that my noble friend the Minister wants to sit down ...

As my noble and learned friend is aware, I speak for the Government.

Can the Minister indicate when the Government will respond to the report on the Bill by the Const...

I am afraid that I do not know; I will find out.

And write to me with the answer.

I am grateful to all Members of the Committee from around the Chamber for the constructive manner...

Before the noble Baroness goes to the point where she disagrees with me, I thank her for her resp...

My Lords, I am again grateful to the noble Lord. However, his second central point was the big co...

Moved by

Lord German

4: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out “Parliament” and insert ...

My Lords, in moving Amendment 4, I will speak also to a suite of amendments which go throughout t...

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. He has said repeatedly that the Supreme Court has held as ...

As the noble Lord will know, the other clause in the Supreme Court judgment, which he did not ref...

It is not only a question of whether they are in place but whether Rwanda is compliant and remain...

Indeed. That is why, in this suite of amendments, the Secretary of State has to take the advice o...

Is it right that what the noble Lord perhaps had in mind when referring to the Supreme Court judg...

My Lords, I am loath to say “yes” to a leading question from a leading lawyer, but he is absolute...

My Lords, I regret that I was not able to take part in discussion on the previous group because I...

I commend to my noble friend the concept of the rolling sunset, which he will find in Amendments ...

I am very interested in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord German. On one view, it is s...

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this group, but the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falcone...

My Lords, I rise with some hesitancy, in the middle of a rather technical debate, but I would lik...

My Lords, I speak briefly in support of my noble friend Lord German. It has been a short debate, ...

I know I am going slightly outside the ordering of clauses, but Amendments 81 and 82 to Clause 9 ...

I am grateful to the noble Viscount. I listened carefully to what he said, including at Second Re...

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord German, said, there is a suite of amendments in this group that...

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this debate, and in particular to t...

I would like to wreck the Bill—just so the Minister knows.

I accept that and I did hear the noble Baroness make that point from the Benches opposite.

...

I thank the noble and learned Lord for answering the question, but I am not sure that answers the...

My Lords, in relation to the operation of the treaty during its currency, we should bear in mind ...

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister might tell us how long the course was, how many people were tr...

I do not think the noble Lord will be especially surprised to hear that I do not have those facts...

The UN has reported on the treaty and the deficiencies that the Supreme Court referred to. In Jan...

My Lords, as I said when I was responding to a point from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falcon...

My Lords, the Minister speaks in the future tense—that the presence of British judges and the tra...

My Lords, I may have missed it, but could the Minister say whether Rwanda has drafted a refugee l...

My Lords, can I add to the Minister’s list the number of judges who have agreed to go to Rwanda a...

My Lords, it is a matter of working towards having the safeguards in place. We have received assu...

I am grateful to the Minister. That is the closest we have got to an answer: “working towards”. C...

It must do.

My Lords—

Just before the noble Lord sits down—

Oh!

Just before the noble Lord stands up or resumes his position, I have specific information on the ...

I am grateful. I clicked on it half an hour ago. Maybe they can do some clicking in the Box, beca...

I think a discussion on this point would be taking up too much of the Committee’s time.

As the Minister confirmed to me, by definition, the safeguards that would make Rwanda safe are no...

My Lords, might I add to that question? Is the noble and learned Lord the Minister not embarrasse...

My Lords, taking the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, together with that of ...

I thank the Minister for giving way. In January, the UN gave an assessment of where the Rwandan i...

My Lords, we disagree with the views of the UNHCR on that point. As noble Lords were reminded at ...

Will the Minister give way? Just a moment ago, he said that Rwanda was “working towards”—that is ...

I do not think that that is the case. I think that by saying that Rwanda is continuing to work on...

Oh!

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. We have not received any evidence as to how this change has ta...

My Lords, could I assist the noble and learned Lord in relation to this? There is a document call...

More than a few weeks ago, I think, but what we have is an internationally binding treaty between...

Am I right in saying that the legally binding commitment commits Rwanda to do the things, particu...

It is not a matter of being ready in an instant. The work is being undertaken. The point is that ...

Have we bought through financial consideration special treatment for the people we send for asylu...

My Lords, the Government enter into diplomatic arrangements such as treaties with other countries...

Is their whole system to be reformed in order that we can be confident of the quality of decision...

I think the noble Baroness has my answer, but the point is this: we do not impose or seek to impo...

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, is about to stand up to intervene. I am aware she has not been h...

I am sorry to intervene again, but I have been here for the whole debate. May I take the Committe...

As I say, this is now a matter of a treaty commitment by that country. We surely accept the possi...

These questions have ranged far and wide, but was not the one issue, as I understand it, on which...

I am grateful to my noble friend. The matter is entirely patent on the Supreme Court’s decision. ...

I have a straightforward and simpler question for the Minister. Paragraph 20 of the policy statem...

I do not have information specific to the questions the noble Lord raises.

I have listened very carefully to this debate. I was particularly interested in the comments from...

I think the noble Lord overstates the matter. Advice and assistance are being provided to assist ...

The noble Lord, Lord Howard, is correct when he says that the fundamental reason why the Supreme ...

People cannot be refouled to a different country under this treaty. They can be sent back to the ...

The Minister rests a great deal on a signature on a treaty with a country that—with the current G...

Well, my Lords, the treaty is governed by our laws, by the Government of Rwanda and by internatio...

For the Minister to be persuasive in response to that question, he would not have said that they ...

I can answer the first part of the noble Lord’s question in the affirmative. On the second part, ...

As I understand it, my noble and learned friend is effectively saying that, because the treaty is...

Another noble Lord is perhaps too ready to disparage the activities and views of the Rwandan Gove...

The noble Lord, Lord Howard, is quite right that the crux of the Supreme Court judgment is the qu...

The noble Lord is aware that, as I explained a moment ago, the provisions of the treaty will send...

Why then does the second sentence of Article 10.3 exist? Why is there? Why does it say:

“Th...

My Lords, it is entirely prudent and appropriate to anticipate contingencies in the terms of a do...

The noble and learned Lord is taking a much tighter and more defensive position than the Governme...

My Lords, I have adverted at some length already to the Monitoring Committee that is in place and...

My Lords, I am feeling slightly confused at this point. Am I correct in saying that the Governmen...

My Lords, the intention of the Bill is to provide that Rwanda is a safe country. As I have explai...

My Lords, if the Committee will forgive me, slid into an earlier part of the Minister’s response ...

I respectfully agree with the noble Baroness that it is important to look at such matters with ca...

I am sorry: those were not domestic figures but general violence against women and girls figures....

I am very aware of the noble Baroness’s campaigning work on the topic, and she will be aware that...

Given that, what is the basis for the Minister’s assertion about gender equality, which was also ...

With respect to the important point which the noble Baroness tables, I have a feeling that this m...

To be helpful, as the Minister finds his place, what is clearly becoming a bone of contention bet...

I am happy to take up the noble Lord’s suggestion. We will correspond with him and other noble Lo...

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on keeping his cool during this debate, because he has had ...

Moved by

Lord Hope of Craighead

6: Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out “is a safe co...

My Lords, I have four amendments in this group: Amendment 6, 14, 20 and 26. They are all part of ...

My Lords, I cannot of course surpass the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, in quality but I can ...

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 8 and associated Amendment 72 in my name. I am grateful to the nob...

My Lords, the full incoherence and madness of the Bill has just been exemplified in the speech of...

I do not quite understand the point that the noble Baroness is making. When I talked about delays...

So the delay we were talking about is delay in the implementation of this legislation. I remind y...

My Lords, I rise to speak because I suspect I am in a minority as one of the very few Members of ...

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the right reverend Prelate, with his fascinating and p...

My Lords, I am not sure that my noble and learned friend should call herself an ex-lawyer. That w...

My Lords, each and every amendment proposed to this Bill shows the sheer nonsense of it. We are b...

My Lords, I rise just to say that I entirely agree with those who have said that we should look c...

My Lords, I shall first address the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln. ...

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for his comments on the sig...

I am grateful. The other proposal, which my noble friend Lord Coaker has put his name to, as well...

I agree with the noble and learned Lord, but I would like to say a word in defence of the amendme...

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Does he agree that the divisional court in the Rwanda proc...

It is a breach of international law. The noble Lord made the same point when we had the same deba...

My Lords, I do not think the Committee needs to apologise for an element of repetition and even c...

I have two points. First, to correct the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, there is precedent in the Austral...

I hate to cross swords with the noble Lord, but I am afraid that what he is saying is factually i...

The people who are being investigated in Nauru want to go to Australia. Similarly, the people who...

Within that debate about processing and offshoring is a question as to whether, if you succeed in...

The situation here is exactly analogous to that in Australia, which has been working successfully...

My Lords, I will speak in favour of this group, particularly Amendments 6, 14 and 20, but I wish ...

My Lords, my Amendments 64 and 65 seek to address the problem that all noble Lords have been seek...

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for speaking in this group, and in particular the noble and lea...

Perhaps the Minister will answer two very simple questions. First, where else in the world have p...

Under the terms of the Bill, a person will be relocated if they have made a protection claim—that...

My Lords, I was living in hope that the Minister would respond to my comments. On an earlier grou...

I am afraid that I will not at this precise moment, but I again defer to the Home Secretary, who ...

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this very interesting debate. I am ...

Moved by

Viscount Hailsham

9: Clause 1, page 2, line 4, leave out subsection (4)

My Lords, I will speak also to Amendment 13. I will be very brief, because the hour is late. At t...

My Lords, I am very proud to have signed the two amendments tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Ha...

My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, mentioned the Constitution Committee, and Amendment ...

My Lords, I support the two amendments tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, which are ent...

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s determination to stop the boats, and I commend the provision...

Is it therefore the noble Baroness’s position that if there were extensive refoulement by Rwanda,...

That is not my view. My view is that, none the less, given the ingenuity of many noble and learne...

I am sorry—the phrase “for a European world” makes me wonder whether the noble Baroness believes ...

I thank the noble Baroness for her interjection. I am referring to the treaties emerging from the...

My Lords, I rise to support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Lawlor. I will spea...

Does the noble Lord realise that the Government, and previous Governments, have signed and ratifi...

Well, I will develop my argument about the tension between domestic legislation, parliamentary so...

I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, whose complaint appears to be about supranational bo...

Well, the noble and learned Lord will be well aware that the Human Rights Act 1998, for instance,...

My Lords—

The hour is late, so if the noble and learned Lord will permit me—

I would be grateful for an answer to the question of what the noble Lord says about

“any ot...

As the noble and learned Lord will know, the amendment is worded such that it is declaratory and ...

I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, that we do indeed need to a...

I hope to address the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. Yesterday, I was i...

My Lords, Amendment 80, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Morrow, relates to the applic...

My Lords, I will speak against Amendments 9, 10 and possibly 13. I declare that I am a member of ...

I am prompted to intervene by Amendment 80, so ably introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. Alt...

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 9 and 13. I obviously have the greatest respect for my nobl...

My Lords, acutely aware of the hour, I will be extremely brief and restrain myself. I offer Green...

My Lords, I shall make a couple of brief comments. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, in his Amen...

I may be pre-empting the noble Lord—incidentally, I very much hope that if there is a Labour Gove...

We will not take unilateral action but seek to work within the international framework to bring a...

I thank the noble Lord for letting me clarify. I specifically mentioned international diplomatic,...

That is an interesting point, but you cannot pick and choose. You cannot simply decide that you d...

A moment ago we heard the noble Lord read out the list of the international conventions set out i...

If Clause 1(6) is completely purposeless and meaningless, it is worth the noble Lord asking the M...

That was devised in the 1950s when the circumstances were quite different and were more important...

Of course taking care of the citizens of this country is necessary and important. There is no deb...

The noble Lord says that the Labour Party agrees that we need to stop the boats and reduce illega...

We have. The noble Baroness may disagree with us, but we have put forward a number of proposals i...

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, which has been a...

I shall be brief. Why did the Minister put that on the face of the Bill, when all the lawyers in ...

There are a number of points that I could address there. As for the matter of me as a Minister sh...

Can the Minister say how many times it has been used in total?

The noble and learned Lord will not be surprised to hear that I do not have the figure to hand, b...

I wonder whether I can encourage the Minister to try that out on some foreigner with whose countr...

That would be a treaty commitment of the sort that is the strongest bond that two countries can e...

I want to be clear. I referred to the provision of the procedures directive which requires a case...

My Lords, I do not wish to enter into a matter that lies outwith my department and sphere of resp...

My Lords, I have just two points. First, I am extremely grateful for the support I have received ...