My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for raising this important topic. I join in the general commendation of the way in which she presented her amendments and the way in which noble Lords have subsequently supported them.
In relation to the remarks of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds, I will, if I may, trespass on your Lordships’ indulgence. Let me say that, having had to work for several years in an entirely foreign language and an entirely unfamiliar legal system, I am quite conscious of the difficulty that one has. There comes a point—in my experience, at least—when you get stuck between two stools and you cannot say anything in either language in trying to express yourself. So the subject matter of what we are discussing is well understood.
Perhaps we might start with the common ground. It goes without saying that interpreting—I emphasise that word—and translation services must be of the highest quality and clarity in the criminal justice system, as well as tailored to the victim’s needs. As far as the Ministry of Justice is concerned, interpreting and translation services are provided under contracts where the various standards and requirements are laid down. As I think the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, pointed out, those arrangements have been subject to ongoing and extensive review, which I hope will be completed shortly—at least not before long—to ensure that we have the highest quality. Obviously, the general objective is fairly self-evident: in the justice system, you must have a high standard of interpreting and translation. For the CPS, interpreters must be on the National Register of Public Service Interpreters. That is the first area of common ground.
The second area of common ground is that, for those whose first language is not English, the right to understand and be understood is enshrined in the code. It is right 1—the most important right of all—and is set out on page 15 of the present draft of the code, which says that
“providers must communicate in simple and accessible language and all translation or interpretation”—
I take the point that it says “interpretation” but probably should say “interpreting”—
“services must be offered free of charge to the victim”.
So this is recognised as a right. If it is not always achieved, as the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, feels, that is, in effect, why we are here. The whole structure of the Bill aims to remedy possible defects and create a system in which we can raise standards progressively and consistently across the country, commissioning bodies can learn from each other and we can improve the service available to victims, generally speaking; that is an operational issue rather than an issue of principle. No one is disputing the broad thrust of the comments that have been made.
Here, once again, we come to what is in some ways the philosophical issue behind everything that we have been discussing: to what extent should we introduce matters in the Bill and to what extent should we deal with the operational and detailed aspects in the code or in guidance? On that point, the common ground tends to be a little more limited, if I may say so.
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Taking Amendment 18 first, it is in Clause 2, which is the keystone of the Bill. Clause 2(3) provides that victims must be provided with information to help them to understand the process. However, do we in the Bill, on the face of the principle, need to refer specifically to interpreting and translation services? The Government’s position at the moment is that the position of those who are not entirely comfortable with English as a first language is a matter that should be dealt with in the code and does not qualify for specific mention in those very generally expressed principles in the Bill.
As a corollary to that, whatever may be the defects in the interpreting services that are currently provided by the courts and the strength of those services, this Bill is not the right vehicle with which to regulate interpreting services or to root out bogus interpreters. That is for other measures in other contexts. So the Government’s view on Amendment 18 is that the victims there referred to are already covered by right 1 of the existing code. They are not persuaded that the arguments are strong enough to merit a specific amendment to Clause 2.
Amendment 25 would require any consultation on the code, under Clause 3, to be carried out in a range of languages. As the noble Baroness herself emphasised, the existing code is now published in 15 of the most used languages in this country. An impartial observer might say that it was quite a creditable achievement, frankly, to publish something like this in 15 languages. And that is apart from English and Welsh—of course it is published in Welsh and of course consultations are carried on in Welsh. Addressing the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I say that, if there is any particularly Welsh aspect, of course it should be fully taken into account. I entirely accept that point.
However, translating a consultation into a range of languages is somewhat different from translating a code into a range of languages. Across government, consultations in one form or another happen daily and are invariably published in English and Welsh— and very often in British Sign Language as well. As a matter of principle, the Government do not consider that there is a case for publishing such consultations in languages other than our two working languages, English and Welsh—and nor do they consider that there sufficient grounds to make an exception in this particular Bill as far as the consultations are concerned.
Amendment 33 relates to the duties of criminal justice boards to raise awareness under Clause 6. Amendment 47 relates to guidance: the duty that applies to all victims, regardless of their language. That duty to raise awareness already applies, irrespective of what the first language of the victim is. How criminal justice bodies are to do that under Clause 6 will be subject to statutory guidance under Clause 11. It is certainly the Government’s expectation that such guidance will refer to the needs of non-English speakers. How can we raise awareness without addressing the situation of victims who do not speak English as their mother tongue?
In answer to the reassurances that have been sought about how that guidance is constructed and what its content is, I am very happy to consider, with quite an open mind, what should be in that guidance and how we should go about making sure that criminal justice bodies are fully apprised of the need to reach victims whose first language is not English; that is the Government’s position on this group of amendments.