My Lords, I apologise; I will see how long my voice lasts—not long, I imagine some people hope, but we will see how it goes.
I too congratulate the Minister on her promotion. She has already learned some of the tricks of the ministerial trade: she has gone through what she has previously said and asked her civil servants to have a look and see what she could say back if anyone raised it, which relates to what she opened with about simplification.
The serious point is that the fact that she has questioned the Bill will make her a very good Minister. That does not mean undermining the Bill, but you have to have a Minister who challenges it and listens to what people say, otherwise the whole process is pointless. From that point of view, we are all reassured by her appointment.
5.15 pm
It is a great pleasure to support my noble friend Lord Hunt in his amendment, which is supported by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Finlay. Before we get to the specifics of Amendment 185, the context is that the big clash on this Committee is between those of us who believe that the Government should use the procurement process to further social policy and other objectives such as the environment, workers’ rights and so on and the Government themselves, who say that much of that is dealt with in other legislation and is therefore unnecessary. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt,
has brought before us a clear example of where the Government have moved in other legislation. The example was given of the outlawing of the commercialisation of organ tourism. That is an important step forward and something that has really made a difference, but it does not go far enough. That is what my noble friend’s amendment leads on and says we should do something about.
After listening to what my noble friend Lord Hunt, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, have said, the question for the Government is: why would they not do it? Why would they not do everything they could to tackle the problems and the awful horror of what we have had explained to the Committee today? The Minister will be as against that as the rest of us. She and the Government will be as appalled as the rest of us. It is not as if there is a clash of views on it or a difference of opinion; everyone is appalled by the sort of testimony that my noble friend Lord Hunt has given us, reinforced by others in the Committee. So the fundamental question is: why do we not do something about it and change the law? Why do we not, as the amendment seeks, involve training as well as equipment and exclude those aspects from the supply chain? Surely that is the least that could be expected.
Time and again we get these examples of human rights abuses. These surely have to be right up there with some of the worst examples of such abuses. People being imprisoned because of their ethnicity or religion, even if they are criminals, is just not acceptable—I can hardly find the words. Where someone is imprisoned simply because of their ethnicity or religion and this is forced upon them, that is truly shocking.
As I say, we have a very simple amendment in front of us, laid out expertly by my noble friend Lord Hunt. The evidence that has been presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is unanswerable. The Government simply cannot answer it. The Government should adopt the amendment on Report and put it into the Bill; then they will be doing all they can to get rid of a practice that is simply and utterly abhorrent to all of us, not just in this country but, I suggest, across the world. Perhaps this is idealistic, but it might also suggest to those people who are suffering from persecution in China and other places that outside there are people who care, are bothered and are seeking to do something about it.
Some very worthwhile amendments to this Bill have been put forward to change public procurement policy and pursue various social and environmental objectives. This must surely be one of the most important amendments—if not the most important—in which we seek to use procurement policy to pursue an objective that we would all agree with. It will be difficult for the Government to say that they object to it for any reason I can imagine.
With that, I again congratulate my noble friend Lord Hunt on bringing this amendment forward and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for their remarks. I look forward to the Minister’s response, which I hope will be positive.