My Lords, we have had an excellent debate. I feel as if I have had a master class from some very experienced practitioners on how government really works and what it is like to be on the inside of some of these decisions.
I shall speak to Amendment 85 in my name. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, for setting out so comprehensively the case for enhancing the status and autonomy of the CEO of the OEP. As the noble Lord, Lord Oates, has said, those of us who know the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, know it is very unusual for him to be a cross Cross-Bencher, and it is a sign that we should sit up and take notice when he shows so much passion about the issue.
This is the beginning of a debate about the OEP’s lack of true independence which we will have in different forms over the next few groups of amendments. It has been hugely informative to have had insight from previous Ministers and chairs of NDPBs, who know how Ministers’ powers are really exercised behind the public face.
Our amendment is simple but important. It would amend Schedule 1, which sets out the detailed appointment arrangements for the OEP. I very much welcome the support for the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and other noble Lords. It would require the chair and other non-executive members of the OEP to be appointed by the Secretary of State only with the consent of the Environmental Audit Committee and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee of the House of Commons. That would prevent in years to come the Secretary of State having complete control over non-executive appointments to the OEP. As Schedule 1 stands, there is a worrying cascade of power from the top. The Secretary of State appoints the chair, and then the Secretary of State and the chair appoint the remainder of the non-executives. So in a future scenario, the Secretary of State would only have to appoint a compliant chair to exert undue influence over all the other appointments to the board.
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Meanwhile, noble Lords will know that it is a regular occurrence for Select Committees to scrutinise and discuss appointments to other major arm’s-length bodies. Indeed, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, our amendment reflects the practices that I understood took place in the appointment of Dame Glenys Stacey, where the EFRA Committee and the Environmental Audit Committee carried out pre-appointment scrutiny of the preferred candidate. Sadly, that good practice, and that for other such appointments, has not been carried over into Schedule 1 of the Bill.
I am sure the Minister will say that our fears are unwarranted. He will of course point to the current appointments of Dame Glenys and her team as evidence that the Government can be trusted, and that therefore this measure does not need to be in the Bill. Of course we welcome those appointees, and have absolute faith that they will carry out a good job, but their appointments were made under a huge spotlight, when there was a clear necessity to send the right signals about the OEP’s independence of mind. Future appointments by a future Government may not be so publicly scrutinised, and the opportunity for an easier life may be all too tempting for a future Minister. I hope noble Lords will take our amendment seriously, and I hope the Minister will see the sense of it.
Meanwhile, the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, go one step further. They would create a powerful commissioner with the powerful independent authority that the role demands, and we believe they would be an excellent solution. He beautifully illustrated what can go wrong when the Secretary of State has too much control over the OEP. As he and other noble Lords have said, we are legislating not for the present but for 50 or 60 years’ time. Both he and the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, illustrated the potential farce of Defra fining itself; as the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, said, you cannot be judge and jury. Without guaranteed independence, the threat of political interference will always hang over the CEO and the organisation.
As noble Lords have said, it is not just about being independent but about being seen to be independent. That is the only way in which the OEP’s decisions will be trusted and respected, however controversial they might seem at the time. If it is going to do its job properly, there will always be times when it incurs the displeasure, frustration and even anger of Ministers and the Government. Defending the environment, our natural landscapes and our biodiversity is always going to be a huge responsibility that will, on occasion, require courage to make the right decisions. As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, says, we require a vigorous, courageous person to stand up to the Government in those circumstances.
The OEP needs to be protected from the consequences of strong leadership and strong actions, otherwise it will be all too easy for the organisation to be sidelined, ignored, starved of funds or even shut down. I am sure the Minister will seek to reassure us that that would not happen on his watch, but, as we have said, we are making legislation for the long term, when future Governments might have different priorities. We have only to look at what happened to the Electoral Commission, which had the temerity to fine Vote Leave for overspending in the Brexit referendum and is now threatened with curbs on its power to take court action, to see how easy it is for an established and respected watchdog to be neutered. Other noble Lords have shared experiences of how Ministers have sought to undermine the organisations that they are part of.
The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, would provide a firewall from political interference, by having a commissioner for environmental protection appointed by the Queen through Letters Patent. We believe that this is an excellent proposal. It is the ultimate solution to the concerns about independence that we will be debating today, and I am pleased to hear noble Lords giving full support to these amendments. I hope the Minister is listening to the strength of feeling today. This issue will not go away and, in order to avoid a messy battle, I hope he will feel able to embrace these proposals and come back with some government amendments to satisfy the House before Report. I look forward to hearing that he is indeed prepared to do so.