My Lords, in this amendment the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, whose experience in this area is profound, proposes replacing Clause 27 with an amended set of provisions. Certainly as I read them, their effect—and to deal immediately with the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton—is to provide that all prisoners subject to an extended determinate sentence or a serious terrorism sentence would be eligible for relief by the Parole Board at the two-thirds point of their custodial term. In concept, therefore, this is similar to the intention tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, which he referred to— we will come to it shortly—as he opposes Clause 27 standing part of the Bill. With this amendment, the noble Baroness goes further: to replace Clause 27 with a new provision. If I may say respectfully, the noble Baroness is correct to identify that without Clause 27 there must be some replacement provision included to provide the legislative authority to release those sentenced to the new serious terrorism sentence.
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That said, I do not agree that Clause 27 should be removed from the Bill. It is an integral part of the overall architecture of the Bill and ensures that the most serious terrorist offenders serve a sentence that reflects the gravity of their offending. It is for that reason that the Government have decided such offenders should not be eligible for early discretionary release and instead must serve their entire custodial period in prison before being released on an extended period of licence. I will not repeat what I have said on previous
amendments before the Committee, but I make it clear that I am of the view that it is entirely proportionate for those found guilty of such serious offending to be denied access to early release. We must recall that this applies only to offenders who have been found dangerous by the court, have risked multiple deaths and have been convicted of a serious terrorism offence but where a life sentence was not then imposed.
I shall deal with some particular points raised by speakers in this interesting debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, made an important point about the effect of parole on behaviour. Of course one accepts that one has to have the prospect of proper intervention and support for those in custody and, as my noble and learned friend the Advocate-General mentioned earlier, we have a number of interventions—psychological, ideological and theological—to help to encourage and facilitate desistence and disengagement, support reintegration into society and reduce the risks of further offending. That is plainly in our minds. However, at the same time, one has to recognise that the prospect of early release by the Parole Board could incentivise false compliance. Those who are determined to play the system can attempt to pull the wool over its eyes.
To pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, we certainly do not take the view that such offenders are—to use his phrase, if I noted it down correctly—“uniquely incorrigible”. We have not given up on these offenders. Indeed, we have announced this year the creation of the counterterrorism assessment and rehabilitation centre, which will transform our approach to the research, evaluation and delivery of rehabilitation interventions in prison and probation, which underlines the Government’s commitment in this area.
I take a moment to add my name to the Jonathan Hall QC fan club. We may not agree with everything he says, but the dedication and exemplary approach that he brings to his work can only be commended, and we will continue to engage with him on all the points he raises.
I hope that what I have said so far reinforces the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, that this approach is nothing to do with any concern with or denigration of the Parole Board. On the contrary, it is a consequence of the sentencing structure in this Bill.
That brings me to the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Marks of Henley-upon-Thames, about how licence conditions will be set. The information collection process for prison governors when they are setting licence conditions is exactly the same as preparation for a Parole Board hearing. As with parole cases, the community offender manager will gather all the relevant information for setting the licence conditions, including risk assessments, intelligence from other agencies and, where appropriate, input from MAPPA, the multi-agency public protection arrangements. That would inform their recommendation of necessary and proportionate licence conditions for release from prison. Indeed, for the vast majority of terrorist cases, a MAPPA meeting would review the licence conditions and can suggest changes. There is an explicit requirement in such meetings to give active consideration to whether each condition is necessary and proportionate. Where release is automatic—touching
again on the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton—at the end of the custodial part of a sentence the governor is responsible for the final check that the proposed conditions are necessary and proportionate and where bespoke conditions have been applied that they are endorsed by the relevant authority before they are approved.
It is a matter of public protection and public confidence in the justice system that this extremely serious type of terrorist offender is not granted the privilege of early release from the custodial sentence. While I have no doubt that we will continue to consider these matters in this House and in discussions outside it, for those reasons I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.