My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their amendments, which bring us to a very important set of issues. I discern that the Committee is united in believing that data is necessary in order that we might, as much as possible, develop and devise schemes by which deradicalisation can be accomplished. The Government do not think that a new strategy for rehabilitation and disengagement nor a review of the current delivery is beneficial at this time. However, to reassure noble Lords, I want to briefly set out the important work being done in prisons and probation to turn terrorist offenders away from extremism so that they can be released safely. The Government have a clear strategy for rehabilitation programmes for terrorist offenders. The important work in prison and probation here delivers against the Contest strategy, which was recently refreshed and published. Since then, significant work has been done to strengthen our approach to rehabilitation and disengagement of terrorism offenders. This strategy applies to all terrorism offenders, not only those who will receive the new serious terrorism sentence or be subject to the changes made by Part 1 of the Bill.
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Rehabilitation programmes are not the only way we manage and reduce the threat. These programmes operate in conjunction with our holistic approach to risk reduction through specialist case management, a network of counterterrorist specialists, multi-agency risk assessment and intelligence sharing, specialist counterterrorist staff training and operational controls. Work is ongoing.
Earlier this year, this Government announced a major improvement programme in the sector, the counterterrorism step-up programme, which includes the creation of a CT assessment and rehabilitation centre. This centre represents a major shift in our capability in these fields. It will build an evidence base of what works. As noble Lords have observed, it is notoriously difficult to prove what works in the rehabilitation of terrorist offenders. I refer particularly to the thoughtful observations of the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, on that subject. However, this centre will deploy specialists and use the best available evidence to inform what is delivered. That, in turn, will feed into policy. The CT assessment and rehabilitation centre will have greater capacity to respond to new threats.
For example, there is that growing threat—which the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, identified and to which the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, also spoke—from extreme right-wing terrorists that needs to be addressed. Furthermore, more highly trained staff will be recruited to deliver current intervention programmes. This includes bolstering the cohort of
specialist psychologists and, in relation to the deformation of religious faith that can lead to terrorism, trained chaplains who deliver interventions.
Since 2010, significant work has taken place to develop and improve counterterrorism interventions. The primary intervention delivered with this cohort is the Healthy Identity Intervention, known by its initials HII. It is informed by ongoing evidence, including evidence gained from international partners, and it has been accredited by a panel of experts who confirmed it works in line with the best available evidence.
The direction and ambition of this work is clear, and it is the Government’s view that a new strategy is unnecessary. What is required is for us to deliver this important agenda, and I trust noble Lords will be following that progress with interest. The impact of some measures in this Bill will take time to be considered through proper evaluation. A review in such a short timeframe as the amendments propose would not, I respectfully submit, be able to consider the effect of these programmes or the impact of this important Bill with proper depth and clarity. Instead, noble Lords will have an opportunity to review the Bill’s impact in the usual way three years after it receives Royal Assent.
I said earlier, when referring to group 3 of amendments, that I would try to answer the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, on the assessment and the value of interventions. I have anticipated what I will say in my remarks thus far. Let me go into some further detail.
Rehabilitation is the key to our approach, both in custody, in prison, and in the community, on licence out of the prison. More time in custody will mean more time to carry out targeted, tailored interventions with each offender. We have identified a range of interventions —physiological, theological and ideological—which take into account the risks and needs of each offender, while helping to encourage and facilitate the objectives of desistance and disengagement. Earlier this year, the Government announced the creation of the counterterrorism assessment and rehabilitation centre to which I have referred.
Anxious questions were posed about the effectiveness of these rehabilitation programmes. In particular, we were reminded—and we have been reminded already this afternoon—of the terrible events arising at Fishmongers’ Hall. Her Majesty’s Prison Service delivers a formal and accredited programme in custody and the community: that is the Healthy Identity Intervention programme. There is also the prison strand of the Desistance and Disengagement Programme, rolled out in 2018. That programme provides a range of intensive, tailored interventions and practical support designed to help intervention. These intervention programmes have a robust research and evaluation mechanism built into them. That will be at the heart of the work of the new CT assessment and rehabilitation centre.
As I say—again in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede—we appreciate that measuring changes in behaviour is notoriously hard, especially in such a small cohort relative to the size of the prison and probation population in England and Wales, and for that matter elsewhere in the United Kingdom. All
terrorist prisoners are managed through a specialist case management process. This includes standardised tools for assessing and grading offender risk and needs, with a strong and regular multi-agency governance of the cases. We have a range of rehabilitative tools in prison. These tools assist in support of the management of risk and the needs of each individual offender. As I say, there is a holistic approach to rehabilitation that seeks to allow us to manage effectively and reduce the threat.
Turning again to remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, most extremist prisoners can be managed in the mainstream prison population, with appropriate conditions and controls underpinned by a specialist multi-agency counterterrorism risk management process, which allows risk assessments and intelligence to be shared appropriately with the partners. Separation centres were never intended for use with all or significant numbers of terrorist offenders. If we were to put all, or a significant proportion of, those with terror convictions, extremist views or susceptibilities to radicalisation into them, it would—as I think the noble Lord appreciated from his comments—undermine their main purpose, which is to separate the most dangerous from those vulnerable to radicalisation or further radicalisation.
To add to my remarks about the nature and quality of tools used in prison in this difficult and challenging field, I refer the Committee to the Extremism Risk Guidance 22+. This is the principal tool used to assess extremist offending by specially trained psychologists or probation officers. This requires the assessor to consider 22 factors, and any additional factors, to understand an individual’s pathway to engagement in extremism, how they overcame inhibitions against offending and their capability to contribute to, or to commit a further extremist offence. It contributes to decision-making by a multidisciplinary team about the individual concerned.
I refer the Committee to the Healthy Identity Intervention. This is a one-on-one programme that supports desistance and disengagement from extremism by targeting the social and psychological drivers of extremist offending. The central aims are to reduce an individual’s willingness to offend on behalf of an extremist group, cause or ideology and to promote and facilitate disengagement from an extremist group, cause or ideology. It is neither ideologically focused nor intended to re-educate participants in a particular set of beliefs or doctrine. Rather, it aims to encourage individuals to reflect on and re-evaluate their commitments, beliefs and values. It has been subject to scrutiny by the Correctional Services Accreditation and Advice Panel, and specialists from the field of extremism research. The purpose of this was to ensure that the intervention is informed by the most current evidence base. The Ministry of Justice is committed to conducting evaluations of accredited programmes to assess delivery and impact on reoffending and other related outcomes.
With special reference to radicalisation in the context of faith or belief, the desistance and disengagement programme includes a theological and ideological intervention programme. In January 2019, a small group of 23 prison chaplains was trained to deliver this with prisoners. In its first year, the programme has received
47 referrals via the case management system. I am told that it has seen some early successes, with a number of chaplaincies and their wider case management teams reporting prisoners beginning to show signs of questioning, and even rejecting, extremist ideology.
Noble Lords will appreciate that none of that is intended to suggest that the Government think the answers are there and have been accomplished. I hope noble Lords will not think me complacent in rehearsing them; I seek to provide assurance that the Government are aware of the extent and complexity of the problem to which the Committee has alluded, and we are seeking to advance solutions in a number of ways.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, drew to the Committee’s attention the remarks of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, Jonathan Hall QC. The Government welcome his review on this important issue. I think I speak for the whole House in saying that I am sure he will bring his rigour, authority and independence to the task. The Lord Chancellor has asked officials to give him the support and access that he needs. The Government will consider carefully his findings and recommendations once they are available.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, for his description of my noble friend Lord Wolfson and me as the “joint strike force”. I am particularly happy with this, as it suggests a dynamism on my part which others have often failed to identify. I hope the whole House will accept our assurance—I think I speak for my noble friend in this—that we will seek to live up to the noble Lord’s very kind words and maintain his favourable opinion. I say that also with reference to the kind remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf.
The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, referred to the absence of real measurement in place, to the necessity of academic and neurological research and to providing the tools for assessors in dealing with these exceptionally difficult and complex problems. I hope the outline I have given of the programmes already in place has gone some way to satisfying him as to the importance with which the Government treat these matters. I also hope he will accept my assurance that in no sense do we on this side of the House consider that these have reached an end; rather, they are part of an evolving understanding of the problem and, equally, an evolving series of strategies to deal with it.
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The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, also referred to recruitment and radicalisation in prisons. I refer her to my earlier remarks on the recruitment of specialist chaplains; imams are also trained within that group to provide interventions within the programme to which I spoke. I agree with her that the issues are indeed complex.
The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, was concerned that little progress appears to have been made. I hope that what I have said will reassure him that, while we appreciate the ultimate objective is a long way from being reached—indeed, such is the nature of the difficulty, it may never be reached; we may always be pursuing and trying to catch up with an evolving threat—none the less, serious thought is given to the matter. Preparation to deal with it is in hand.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and others referred to the evolving and growing risk of right-wing terrorism and radical views such as she described. I am sure she will agree that part of the answer to this is robust and vigorous debate within freedom of speech to challenge such unpalatable, harmful and criminal views as they arise.
The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, mentioned the complexities of the matter and spoke about the means by which these objectives of deradicalisation may be followed. He referred to polygraphs; to echo some of the remarks made earlier by the other wing of the joint strike force, polygraphs are merely part of a battery of measures to be deployed in assessing these matters. He asks whether it is possible ultimately to succeed in deradicalising; I have made some remarks on that already. I say again that our understanding of the problem, and of where potential solutions may arise, is evolving.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, that the effectiveness of the strategies which the Government have in place is bound to improve. Methodologies will improve as time goes on and data is collected and studied.
In real terms, I do not disagree with anything the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, said about the need for a review of the operation of these measures. However, is it realistic to call for such a review within the short time for which the amendments call? For the reasons I have discussed concerning the acknowledged difficulties around collecting and examining data, I say that it is not.
Against that background and in light of the assurances I have sought to give, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will see fit to withdraw his amendment, and that in due course the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, will see fit not to press his.