My Lords, I was not proposing to speak to Clause 8 but I do propose to speak to Clauses 9, 10 and 11. The effect of those clauses is, in brief, to introduce a provision for extended sentences for terrorism offences where previously extended sentences were applicable for specified violent or sexual offences. Clause 9 deals with England and Wales, Clause 10 with Scotland and Clause 11 with Northern Ireland.
The provision for extended sentences involves an extension of the conditions set out in the legislation of up to eight years in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and 10 years in Scotland. The sentences have serious consequences: they extend the time for release on licence from half way through the sentence to the two-thirds point. They mean that release on licence will not follow after two-thirds of the sentence has been served unless the Parole Board has in fact recommended release. The extended term will then be served on licence after the custodial period has been served.
This is a probing opposition to the clauses standing part, on the basis that before the Government secure support for extended sentences to be used in this way
we say, much as we did in respect of Clause 7, that they need to demonstrate why these very substantial extensions are necessary. Once again the Explanatory Notes explain how the extension works and how the system works, but do not seek to provide any justification. Much as I heralded in my intervention at the end of the noble Earl’s speech on the last group, we would expect to see evidence of cases where judges felt constrained to impose terms that they believed were too short, where they believed their powers were insufficient adequately to protect the public, or where these very long extended terms on licence were necessary. Again, it is not simply enough to rely on the views of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service; one really needs the evidence of judges, to show why they believe they cannot do enough under the existing law. There has been no such evidence.
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Interestingly, the Home Office produced a fact sheet to justify Clauses 7 to 11. I will not read it out, but the Home Office recited many of the arguments in brief that were relied on by the noble Earl in closing the last group. As did the noble Lord, Lord Davies, we accept entirely everything that the noble Earl said about the seriousness of terrorist offences, their increasing dangers and increased prevalence. We accept many of the arguments for targeted powers for the security services and the police, and we accept that the increased sentences and increased sentencing powers, such as in respect of extended sentences, should not be taken in isolation, as the noble Earl suggested. The fact that they should not be taken in isolation does not mean that each component part of this Bill—each component extra power and each component extension of the sentencing powers of the courts—should not have to be justified individually. The job of this House is to look at everything that is done to increase the powers of the security services, the police and the courts, individually to see whether it fits as part of the whole as necessary and proportionate in every case.
Nothing has been put forward by the Government to justify the extension of these long extended sentences in this way. We are not persuaded that they have justified them. They need justification and we invite the Minister in closing this group, or at least by undertaking further research before Report, for the evidence on which he asks this House to approve that the clause should stand part of the Bill.