My Lords, this has been a wide-ranging debate and I find myself in a slightly uncomfortable position: I am taking issue with several of my noble friends but I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. If I may, I shall start with the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and then move on to our amendments and reply to some of the points that noble Lords have made.
Obviously, Amendment 25YD, in the name of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is dependent on the preceding government amendments being passed. It provides that, three years after the Act passes, the definition of “extreme pornographic material” will cease to have effect and will be replaced by a definition of material which would not be classified—in effect, the current definition of “prohibited material”.
The debate on this has been strong on both sides, and it is an interesting idea that we have considered. However, our aim with this Bill, as has been said by
several noble Lords, is to protect children from accessing pornographic material. We are creating parity between the offline and the online worlds in protecting children from being able to access pornographic material. These are different and incomparable places, and this is the closest we can get on parity of content through the age verification regime. Subject to the Bill shortly gaining Royal Assent, to specify that this should happen in spring 2020 unless a review finds otherwise by spring 2019 is in our view unnecessarily restrictive. It presents a binary choice that predetermines the outcome of any review. We know this is a fast-moving environment, and we do not know what the landscape will look like in two years’ time. Forcing the legislation into doing something which restricts the response to how children are protected online could have unintended consequences.
What we are doing now is: through the guidance to the regulator, we are providing for the regulator to report annually on the effectiveness of the regime. This will provide the opportunity to review the regime and take any necessary action. This is a big step forward without precedent, and to focus on this one issue, which is undoubtedly important, risks being able to ensure that the regime as a whole is as effective as possible in the future at preventing children from accessing pornography online.
The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, seeks to introduce that the Secretary of State must produce a report on the impact and effectiveness of the regulatory framework provided for in this part and must consult on the definitions used within this part. The report must be laid 12 to 18 months after the powers come into force. We must aim to lay the groundwork for success before the powers are introduced, and the regulatory framework we are providing will do that. However, this will be a bold new regime with many challenges and it is right that the effectiveness of the regime is reviewed. That is why, as I have just said, through the guidance to the regulator we are providing for the regulator to report annually to the Secretary of State on the impact and effectiveness of the regime. Placing a formal requirement on the Secretary of State to do this is, in our opinion, unnecessary.
The Bill is neither the end nor the extent of our interest in child internet safety. The implementation of age verification will be watched closely from day one. We have consistently recognised the need to be flexible in our approach and this will remain the case in addressing any issues that may arise. This work forms part of our wider response to online safety, and the work that has begun in the internet safety strategy demonstrates our clear commitment to ensuring that people in the UK have a positive experience online. I shall come to that a bit later. With that explanation I hope noble Lords will not press their amendments in due course.
I turn now to replies to some of the points noble Lords made about the government amendments. I echo very much the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. For those who have not participated before in this Bill process, it would be helpful to repeat some of the things he said about how we got here. In some ways it is a mischaracterisation—not malicious, I hasten to add, and maybe “misunderstanding” is a better
word—that we are watering down the controls, as my noble friend Lord Farmer, said, or that we slipped this in at the last minute.
As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, the position we are in is because we have accepted amendments through the course of the Bill. It is a bit unfair of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to criticise the fact that this debate is happening so late in the day when the only reason we are having it is because we accepted the amendment in the House of Commons. The issues about where we go on what is effectively internet censorship were raised in Committee in this House. So we are discussing these things because noble Lords and Members of Parliament have changed the Bill as we went on. The one thing on which we all agree—and this has been confirmed all around the House—is that we want to address child online safety. One of the big advantages from this Bill is that, by getting effective age verification in place, we have made a huge step forward.
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The problem comes not on age verification but when we talk about ISP blocking, because when we start talking about ISP blocking for reasons other than age verification we are moving into online censorship. That is where, as I said in my opening remarks, the terribly difficult line is—the very sensitive nature of effectively discussing what is right and wrong. Blocking sites that show prohibited material may not cover some areas that some people think should be covered. I am not saying tonight what is right or wrong, but what is clear is that there is no consensus on this, and we should have a proper debate. We have said that using a definition that already exists in law, and has been debated, scrutinised and accepted by Parliament, is better than relying on the CPS guidelines.
The noble and learned Baroness asked a very reasonable question—“Why doesn’t the CPS just change its guidelines?”. Well, it may do in time, but one thing that is certain is that the Government cannot tell the CPS to change its guidelines. That would be quite wrong, and I think that noble Lords would be very upset if we did. So we have moved to an accepted definition of what should be blocked in the line of online censorship, because that is what it is, and that is the definition that we are proposing in our amendments.
The noble and learned Baroness asked some specific questions. We accept that in using the pre-agreed definition in the 2008 Act there are some areas that we might want to think about later. For example, there is violence to women. We are absolutely clear that we do not condone serious violent porn as described by the noble and learned Baroness; violent and obscene acts will continue to be liable to be investigated by the police and other law enforcement bodies. Our amendment has made that absolutely clear—what is criminal offline is criminal online. But age verification will provide stronger protections than currently exist online.
The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, talked about the IWF. I do not think that I said anywhere in my remarks that we were extending the remit of the IWF, because it covers non-photographic child sexual abuse images hosted in the UK, and we are not going to
extend that—but we will continue to work with the IWF to strengthen the response to child sexual abuse material. We do not want to open up the scope of the line between the BBFC and the IWF.
The noble Lord, Lord Gordon, asked why online prohibition was not the same as offline. The fact is that content should be aligned, and our aim has always been to ensure that protections that exist for children offline are also provided online. There is the Obscene Publications Act, for example, under which the CPS can prosecute, but it has discretion whether to do so or not; it still exists, and the CPS will still be able to prosecute in exactly the same way as before. So this Bill should be viewed alongside other work that is done in relation to online material, in particular the work of the IWF.
We have listened carefully to the criticisms that, in defining prohibited material in Part 3 as anything that would not be classified, we were going too far. Some noble Lords may not agree with that, but freedom of choice should be curtailed only after a lot of thought. We have agreed, in our internet safety strategy, to provide the opportunity to think about these things and some noble Lords have already been asked. We are not kicking it into the long grass: we have already planned round tables. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester asked about the White Paper. It is a Green Paper; we have promised to publish it in June and we are having round tables before that. As far as legislative time is concerned, I too heard the “Today” programme this morning. Of course, Brexit is going to take a lot of time, but there is still room for the domestic agenda. I think we can be certain that protecting women against violence, and other things like that, are going to be high on it, but I am giving no promises. I may be new, but I have been around long enough to know that I am not going to commit the Government to that from this Dispatch Box. However, we are taking it seriously and producing a forum, led by my department and in conjunction with the Home Office, to look at the internet safety strategy.
I do not think we have moved from an existing regime which has been around for a long time. We are where we are because we have accepted amendments all the way through the progress of the Bill. We have work to do but, to get child protection online, we hope noble Lords will consider supporting the government amendments in the meantime. I beg to move.