UK Parliament / Open data

Housing and Planning Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Thursday, 10 March 2016, in the House of Lords.
Lords committee stage (fifth day, part two). Clause 67 agreed to. Clause 68, amendment discussed and withdrawn.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
769 cc1462-1522 
Session
2015-16
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Housing and Planning Bill 2015-16. Brought from the Commons
Wednesday, 13 January 2016
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2016-0330
Monday, 4 April 2016
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2016-0357
Wednesday, 13 April 2016
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Beecham | 769 c1462 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

63: Clause 67, page 29, line 33, at end insert—

“( ) The ...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc1462-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I begin my speech in support of Amendment 63, in my name and that of my noble friend Lo...


Show all contributions (133)
Lord Lansley | 769 c1466 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I intervene briefly on this group of amendments. I have listened with care and interest...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1466 (Link to this contribution)

Actually, the Companion allows that. Because we are in Committee, noble Lords can speak on any as...

Lord Lansley | 769 c1466 (Link to this contribution)

I am learning the advantages of being in your Lordships’ House as opposed to another place. This ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1466 (Link to this contribution)

There are repeated references to right to buy. There is no right to buy because housing associati...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1466 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord said that the right to buy was popular in its time. He is right that it was popula...

Lord Lansley | 769 cc1467-8 (Link to this contribution)

In a way. I certainly do not propose to engage in a semantic debate about what the policy is desc...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1468 (Link to this contribution)

Why not leave the decision to local authorities within whose boundaries these high-value properti...

Lord Lansley | 769 c1468 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for that because I had not realised it until I listened to the Bill being discussed...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 cc1469-1472 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, referred to the need to build more homes. There is a way of buildin...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1471 (Link to this contribution)

I remember that when I was a young councillor in Southwark in the 1980s I got this exposed in the...

Lord Tope | 769 c1473 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is referring to a situation that the noble Baron...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1473-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1474 (Link to this contribution)

What is the proportion between the right-to-buy discount and the provision of new homes?

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1474 (Link to this contribution)

Well, we are all fairly frustrated about this, I think it is fair to say. I have to keep telling ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1474 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry. We have been hammering away about SIs and all the rows we have had on this, but will ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1474 (Link to this contribution)

As I have just said, I anticipate that it will be after Royal Assent.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 cc1474-5 (Link to this contribution)

We have spent a long time on starter homes, where we are not going to get the detail until after ...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1475 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham. It is a travesty of the House’s processe...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1475 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I might add one further point. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Young, would ag...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1475 (Link to this contribution)

I endorse the comments of my noble friend Lady Hollis and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about the...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and hope I might be able to perhaps provide some comfort to...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

Would it be appropriate for the Minister to ask the Leader of the House to make a Statement to us...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am not sure about the Leader making a Statement. I am certainly making a statement as...

Lord Foster of Bath | 769 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise, and I know that the Minister is as frustrated as the rest of us, but I just remind h...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

I did say that—the noble Lord is absolutely right—and I will. One of the important things to be a...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1476 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, nobody, genuinely, is criticising the Minister. I would not want to be in her position ...

Lord True | 769 c1477 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we just heard a speech from my noble friend Lord Lansley, who is not in his place. I th...

Lord True | 769 c1477 (Link to this contribution)

I am very glad to hear that. Perhaps that can be the end of these repeated exchanges with my nobl...

Lord True | 769 c1477 (Link to this contribution)

I shall give way in a minute. We would all like to have the information, but perhaps that would b...

Lord Foster of Bath | 769 cc1477-8 (Link to this contribution)

I share the noble Lord’s view that this is not an attack on the Minister, who has been clear that...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1478 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, will the Minister report to the Government that this House very much regrets the imposs...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1478 (Link to this contribution)

I thank noble Lords for their words, particularly my noble friend, given that I have not been her...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1478 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, perhaps the Minister could tell me when the next set will be. I thought the technical b...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1478-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have asked for additional briefings to be provided over the next week or so, until we...

Baroness Blackstone | 769 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, but I just wanted to make a brief point. Useful a...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

I will be responding formally to the DPRRC’s report, and specifically to that point, very soon in...

Lord Foster of Bath | 769 c1479 (Link to this contribution)

Earlier today, the Minister assured me that I might be a little bit cheered by what she was going...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1479-1480 (Link to this contribution)

The days blur into one a bit, my Lords, when we think about the days we have spent debating.

<...
Lord Beecham | 769 c1480 (Link to this contribution)

Just to clarify, does that mean building new homes potentially in a different locality from that ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1480 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it could be, but the overall thing is that we will be adding to the stock of homes in t...

Lord Stunell | 769 c1480 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for giving way: she has had a difficult day. She has just given us some welc...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1480 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I would anticipate that it would be at a local authority level, although I acknowledge ...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1481 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister referred to a local authority level. Will there be some local authorities that will ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1481 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that might well be the case, depending on how it looks when all of the data are analyse...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1481 (Link to this contribution)

I shall suggest another scenario. Let us take my former constituency area of Workington. The coun...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1482 (Link to this contribution)

I have just agreed, in a sense, with the noble Lord that we want to guard against some of the pro...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1482 (Link to this contribution)

I think we are pleased that the Minister shares our concern, as we would expect her to do, about ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1482-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will certainly undertake to engage with the different sectors because they are at the...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1483 (Link to this contribution)

Before the Minister sits down, I think I heard her say that the money collected from councils wou...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1483 (Link to this contribution)

I will look at it again. I am assuming that the debts and liabilities are housing loans.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1483 (Link to this contribution)

There is one further point that has been troubling me. Given the hour, I was going to leave it, b...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1483 (Link to this contribution)

I think the answer is yes. If it had kept its stock, it would be levied, as the noble Lord points...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1483 (Link to this contribution)

Does that mean it would have no control over whether it could realise any of those high-value pro...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc1483-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, as ever, it has been an interesting debate—necessarily, I am afraid, longer than any of...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1485 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Kerslake

66B: After Clause 67, insert the following new Clause—

“...

Lord Kerslake | 769 cc1485-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 68B and 68C, which are in this group and are connected...

Lord Horam | 769 c1487 (Link to this contribution)

Is not that surely because of the sheer difference between different parts of the country? The no...

Lord Kerslake | 769 cc1487-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. However, if the Government were really worr...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1488 (Link to this contribution)

Does the noble Lord think that it would be desirable to include in any such arrangement a period ...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1488 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, those are two important details that we could reasonably look at in the Bill or, had we...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1488 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I think the noble Lord said that it would be acceptable to replace within the local aut...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1488 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, my amendment goes as far as I think it is possible to go within the bounds of the legis...

Lord Campbell-Savours | 769 c1489 (Link to this contribution)

When Ministers look at these matters, it is important that they have in mind that, if they provid...

Lord Stunell | 769 cc1489-1491 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, which I have also si...

Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 769 c1490 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I seek clarification on this amendment, in particular the phrase “the same tenure”. I t...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1490 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised two important points. What I am seeking to say in my amen...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 769 c1492 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, gave an extremely eloquent description of the Ch...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1492 (Link to this contribution)

I will make two points. I am not suggesting changing anything in the Bill for London. I support t...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 769 cc1492-3 (Link to this contribution)

There should certainly be an intent to replace housing; quite how prescriptive we should get is a...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 cc1493-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am still worried about the effect of redistribution, given that the levy will not app...

Lord Lansley | 769 c1494 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in response to the noble Baroness, it seems to me that there is precisely a place where...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1495 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I may come in very briefly. I wish to make three points. First, in any process you need a...

Lord Lansley | 769 c1495 (Link to this contribution)

I do not dispute that that is the reason it is in the amendment; I just think that it is wrong. W...

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville | 769 cc1495-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, there is not much more I can add to the contributions that have already been made. I su...

Lord Kennedy of Southwark | 769 c1496 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, all the amendments in this group and the clause stand part notice are ones that either ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1496 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. In responding to Amendment 6...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1497 (Link to this contribution)

I want to ask the Minister this as I genuinely do not know what the answer is. If the local autho...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1497 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in that sort of situation, I would imagine that the local authority has a number of opt...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1497 (Link to this contribution)

A moment ago, the Minister talked about vacant homes, and I really would like to be clear whether...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1497 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when I talked about vacant as opposed to surplus, we were talking about assets that wer...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1497 (Link to this contribution)

If a vacant home is a home which is empty, for how long does it have to be empty and can a local ...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1497-8 (Link to this contribution)

That is precisely the point I am making. We will be defining what empty—that is, vacant—means in ...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

So it is clear that a vacant home simply means that a tenancy has been given up and that, as a co...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

When I used the term surplus, I meant surplus assets that government might seek to dispose of, an...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

Could the Minister help me with a definition? Does succession to a tenancy create a vacancy along...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

It would depend on the context of the succession. If the successor was a spouse, there would not ...

Baroness Blackstone | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

May I also seek clarification? What if a tenancy comes to an end and there is a long waiting list...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the vacant high-value asset may not necessarily be a big property; it could be a small ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

Does that mean that housing need in a particular local authority will be discarded to fund discou...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1498 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, no, it does not mean that for housing in a particular local authority because housing n...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1499 (Link to this contribution)

Is this not in danger of running in conflict with another government policy—the bedroom tax? If p...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1499 (Link to this contribution)

On the spare room subsidy, if someone is in a property that has more bedrooms than they need to o...

Lord Best | 769 c1499 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this comes up under Amendment 68A, which we are coming to. If you have moved out, it is...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1499 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Lord for that.

Where we have an agreement, we want local authorities to h...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1499 (Link to this contribution)

I am just going to make a bit of progress if that is okay by the noble Baroness. Perhaps she can ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 c1499 (Link to this contribution)

It is simply that the people on that waiting list want that which is being sold, which is a socia...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1499-1502 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have just been over that. I want to get to the point about the borrowing headroom.

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1502 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response and to noble Lords in this Chamber for t...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1502 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, but does he agree that the one-for-one replacement i...

Lord Kerslake | 769 cc1502-3 (Link to this contribution)

There are, of course, two one-for-one policies here. There is one-for-one replacement in housing ...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1503 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Beecham

66C: Clause 68, page 30, line 16, after “Account),” insert—

...
Lord Beecham | 769 cc1503-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Bill’s provisions in relation to higher-value council properties and pay to stay—I ...

Lord Shipley | 769 c1505 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 66E, which relates to the point made a moment ago by th...

Lord Kerslake | 769 cc1505-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 67B and 67C, which are in my name. Both amendments relate to...

Lord Stunell | 769 c1507 (Link to this contribution)

Is this not actually a back-door way of abolishing stock transfers? There will be no more in the ...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1507 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord makes a very strong point. The stock transfer mechanism has been available to loca...

Baroness Grender | 769 cc1507-1510 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 67, 68E and 69 in particular, but am generally supportive...

Lord Best | 769 cc1510-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group, not least those in the name of the noble Ba...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 769 cc1512-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I strongly support Amendment 67B, moved so well by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. I wan...

Lord Carrington of Fulham | 769 c1515 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, this afternoon we have heard many examples of potential housing crises and disasters ca...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 769 c1516 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak briefly to Amendments 67C and 68A. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord, L...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1516-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Beecham, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake, Lord Shi...

Lord Beecham | 769 c1517 (Link to this contribution)

Does that not effectively spell the end of tenant management organisations, and are they not a fo...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1517 (Link to this contribution)

Would the noble Lord explain why he thinks that this would be the end of TMOs?

Lord Beecham | 769 c1517 (Link to this contribution)

Because if the properties become high-value ones, on becoming vacant they will be sold. The whole...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1517 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, if the property were sold, surely the TMO would exist for different types of tenures.

Lord Beecham | 769 c1517 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot see how that is going to happen. As people move out, the people who move in will be buyi...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1517-8 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, that is not the intention at all, but I am very happy to take that away and have a thin...

Lord Best | 769 c1518 (Link to this contribution)

I am delighted to hear that from the noble Baroness. My amendment was specifically about transfer...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 cc1518-9 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the noble Lord is right—he is more alert at this hour than some of us.

I also ...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1519 (Link to this contribution)

I want to come back to this issue, although I am conscious of the hour. The Minister said that it...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1519 (Link to this contribution)

It is important for the Secretary of State to make the decision because he can make a judgment on...

Lord Kerslake | 769 c1519 (Link to this contribution)

I accept that in the Bill it is a discretion—it says “may”—but we have no sense of knowing in wha...

Baroness Williams of Trafford | 769 c1520 (Link to this contribution)

I was about to say that, if I may, I will get back to the noble Lord in due course with a bit mor...

Lord Beecham | 769 cc1520-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness recognises that debates will take place next week. I ...

Subjects
Back to top