My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 33Y and cover some other issues. I congratulate the noble Baroness on her helpful approach to this. A great deal of work has been conducted and the Government are to be congratulated on the spirit in which they have worked to try, consistent with their word, to replicate the amendment passed in the Commons. They have done some very good work. The officials, of whom I have seen rather more than I expected, have worked diligently to do that, and I am encouraged and pleased to be able to say that we have made a great deal of progress. I think that the amendment meets the objectives of the Commons, which is to support all participants in the industry while recognising that we have challenges in the history of relations between the pubcos and the tenants which also need to be addressed.
I am not a pessimist regarding the concerns of some noble Lords about the commercial interests that will be affected by this. I have read the London Economics report—I was not convinced by it, but I have read it. I think that the impact of supermarket prices, for example, has been far more significant than other factors, so we have to put this into context. Our opportunity through the amendments and the Bill is not just to make those changes but to create a framework that will work for the industry and the development of the sector. That is an important objective for us to keep in mind.
This large series of amendments covers a lot of ground and a number of issues which lie at the heart of what was agreed in the other place on the issue of the market rent only option. As I said, the noble Baroness and her team have worked diligently in the face of time and other constraints to deal with them. In the particular circumstances of this part of the Bill, it is inevitable that our debate today has been rather more like Committee than Report, and it may be helpful to the Government if I explain that I think that the right thing to happen now is for a very limited range of issues to be given further consideration—a process in which we are happy to participate—and brought back for final decision at Third Reading. The noble Baroness stated in her introduction that she was happy to say that there is a great deal of support for some of the government amendments from CAMRA, Fair Pint, and others. In their briefings, they expressed their support for the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham and my noble friend Lord Whitty and others standing in our names. There is a great deal of support for the amendments, which need to come together in some fashion to provide a coherent Bill.
We believe that the Government have made excellent progress on some matters, which we are pleased to support. I will outline those shortly. However, we still have profound reservations and are strongly opposed to some of the amendments before your Lordships’ House today. We are keen to ensure that they are dealt with through further discussion at this stage, and strongly recommend that they be finalised in time for Third Reading—and certainly before they go back to the other House. As I said, we are keen to work constructively with the Government, as we have done to date.
In that context, I particularly support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that much of what we are now considering will be in secondary legislation. At this stage and at this time, as we move towards Third Reading, we need a lot more clarity on some things to know what is meant by the amendments, because that is where the direction of secondary legislation will go. It is worth being as expansive as we can in those circumstances.
We are happy to support a number of the government amendments: for example, making the minor but vital drafting changes to “market rent only option” and the “no worse off” principle, although I should be grateful if the Minister can confirm, as a tidying up exercise, that if the Government have missed a change, they will bring it forward at Third Reading. We are happy to support the reinstatement of the parallel rent assessment for existing tenants—which means by implication that we are resolutely opposed to Amendment 33L.
We are very pleased to see one particular drafting change. I note that despite being told constantly of the legal impossibility of changing a “may” to a “must” in discussion on the Bill, we have one in government Amendment 33U. I had previously said that I might not mention that but I cannot resist. We understand that this drafting change is also there to express properly the Government’s commitment to this, which is very welcome.
We are also pleased to support the definition of market rent being brought in line with the guidance by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, and are content with the changes to the market rent only option procedure. We also hope keenly that the Minister will make a few comments on timings.
We have some questions in relation to the protections of the brewers’ routes to market. In general, we are happy to ensure that there are some protections. Our Amendment 33AR seeks clarification in the Bill that this route to market will allow some restrictions on the sales of competitors’ products, although not a complete ban. As now, brewing companies will have to look at their individual circumstances and ensure that they comply with all aspects of competition law. We will probe this to see what “some restrictions” means and are keen to seek some assurances on a number of points. Will the Government confirm that their provisions mean that tenants can be sure that they are no worse off than a free-of-tie tenant, because they will have access to free-of-tie pricing for all the alcohol that they sell? Will the Government assure the House that the stocking restrictions mean that brewers could require that their beer or cider is sold in their pubs, but not that products made by other specific brewers are purchased? We would also be grateful if the Government can confirm that tenants could purchase the required products from any supplier, and therefore access free-of-tie prices.
We are also keen to have the Government’s clarification as to how this will work. Tenants are not prevented from selling beer and cider from other brewers. The stocking requirement can restrict these sales but cannot provide exclusivity for the brewer. It would be interesting to understand how this will work. Any restrictions
could be tested by the adjudicator as being reasonable or unreasonable but it would be very useful to get some better understanding of how the Government see this operating, since it covers placement, category, offers and marketing. If the stocking requirement was drawn too tightly, it could be deemed to be a tie in and of itself. We hope that the Government will acknowledge this possibility and confirm that it must comply with competition law.
As an example of what has been considered reasonable or unreasonable in the eyes of industry, and what it considers that it might look like, it has been suggested to us that the starting point would be what products are sold in the pub prior to a market rent only option. A stocking requirement which restricted the choice significantly post-MRO would likely be unreasonable. We would like to have the Government’s observations on this point.
We accept that there has to be a balance and agree with the aim of the amendment: to ensure that the stocking requirement is meaningful. However, we also believe that there should be protections to ensure flexibility for the licensee to be able to vary their businesses to deal with the varied, and usually local, factors that they may need to address to ensure that theirs is a viable business—albeit those may be national trends about prices in supermarkets, other leisure facilities and substitutional activities. We believe that this leaves a lot of flexibility for the adjudicator and while we accept that the amendment allows for tenants to choose which wine, spirits, soft drinks, food and other services can be provided for all aspects of their pub, and who the providers can be, we are keen to ensure that nothing in the Bill allows for the asymmetries of power and information to be enshrined in legislation which in and of itself is designed to support small businesses and deal with those asymmetries. Together with the pub companies and tenants, we are keen to make sure that the balance of judgments is reasonable.
I look forward to the Minister’s reply and hope that she can address the issues in detail. We are of course happy to have further discussions on this between now and Third Reading. In the circumstances that she is unable to provide sufficient clarity of the tramlines on which this should operate, I am happy to address it again at Third Reading.
However, we are strongly opposed to the Government’s decision to weaken and water down the amendment from the Commons by eliminating the market rent only option on the sale of title or in administration. We are grateful to the Government for their discussions on this but are yet to be satisfied that there is any substance to the arguments that they presented to us. I am sure that threats of being taken to the European Court of Human Rights by the pub companies have exercised the Government, who have sensibly sought legal advice, but we strongly believe that either or both the legal advice and the client’s examination of that advice are wrong or flawed.
We have sought to deal with this question before coming to the Floor of the House; indeed, we asked for the advice that the Government had sought from counsel, which is experienced in competition, European and public law, to be published so that this could be
dealt with. Our consultations with learned counsel and experts in these areas, and indeed in property law litigation including the European dimension, led us to vastly different conclusions. I know that the Minister has had a very distinguished career in business, and there is a crucial element when taking the advice of lawyers: beyond briefing them—indeed, in some cases I have heard of occasions when you can tell them what you want to hear—there is also a role for a client to examine the advice that is given and to challenge it. It is of course a choice for Ministers to decide what level of risk there is, but in this case Ministers seem to have chosen a threshold so low that we cannot fathom why, in our view, they have been as timid as they have.
The Government have said to us that they are restricted in publishing the legal advice that they received because it is privileged. The claim to privilege is quite odd, as all legal privilege can be waived. What are they worried about in relation to any such waiver? Not the advice falling into the public domain and hence fortifying any challenge, as it is already equally in the public domain that they believe there would be a basis for any such challenge. It is our view that this matter can be resolved in discussion, not on the Floor of any Chamber, if they would allow a full and open legal debate.
I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I quickly outline why we do not accept the Government’s legal arguments on these provisions—if they were retained—fettering rights, causing improper pre-emptions, being challenged on the grounds of affecting value or, in the Government’s view, being uniquely placed for certain destruction under the weight of the ECHR. First, let us not forget that the MRO option is at market rent—by definition—so Clause 43(10) imposes on the parties only a method of determining rent that affects supply and demand for those premises. Infringements of property rights occur when you depart from the free workings of supply and demand, not when you insist on them. Therefore, the more numerous the points at which this can be insisted upon—point of sale rather than just point of entry—the better.
Secondly, without a sale triggering the MRO option, the option could be gamed as there is no benefit during the currency of the existing lease term, and this could become an avoidance tactic to ensure that delays in some cases could lead to tenants being the subject of improper pressures.
Thirdly, the point of sale of the reversion—the landlord’s interest—is a natural point to introduce MRO because the purchaser of the reversion, the new landlord, will be deemed to know the new law and hence that its purchase triggers the MRO option. The new landlord will know the effect of their purchase and be under no illusions as to where they stand.
Fourthly, there are many statutes that infringe property rights, some of them doing much more than simply adjusting the terms of the lease, as this proposes. Some actually confiscate property rights, such as the Leasehold Reform Act 1967, which gives tenants of houses the right to “enfranchise”—that is, buy the freehold off the owner against their will—and the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, which gives owners of flats a right of first refusal to buy the freehold on any sale by the
freehold owner. If this proposal raises human rights or other fundamental issues, so would most of the lease-related legislation on the statute book already.
Fifthly, there is enormous scope for safeguards, flexibility and evolution by the MRO option being overseen by the provisions of the Pubs Code, as reviewed every couple of years, and with the adjudicator’s retained rights to resolve disputes about MRO. This machinery has the ability to limit unfairness to landlords in individual cases because of the swifter introduction of the MRO option.
Sixthly, recent legislation has shown the need for, and has included, wider, more catch-all anti-avoidance provisions. The most effective is in the Landlord and Tenant (Covenants) Act 1995, enforcing the release of original tenant liability on assignment of the leasehold term, which, in Section 24, prohibits anything that seeks to avoid or frustrate the Act. The experience is that the wider the anti-avoidance net, the more it will catch. Making MRO triggered by sale strikes down in one go attempts by landlords to sell to get below the threshold applying to large pubcos.
We have been presented with other partial legal arguments, which I think are useful to set out our understanding and complete rebuttal. There is an argument that the pub company is not free to dispose of its property as the MRO trigger binds the new owner. There is no real limitation—it can still sell or choose not to. It is no different from restrictions on the freedom to dispose of freeholds of blocks of flats under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 and other such measures. There is also a variety of other restrictions placed by means of legislation in other areas that have a similar effect and have not been struck down or even significantly challenged.
Additionally, there is an argument that the MRO trigger results in preferential treatment for this class of commercial tenant. It does not give preferential treatment; it simply removes discriminatory, anti-competitive treatment. All these clauses and, indeed, much of this Bill are about this. I am rather pleased that this counsel has not pronounced on most of the rest of the Bill, because obviously that would undermine other provisions.
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In addition, there is an argument that it affects the value of the property and would be likely to cause a significant decrease, but that is not necessarily the case. Market rent will usually exceed the rent under a tie and hence offset any loss caused by the removal of the tie—which is, in any event, the object of the legislation. As it is, a variety of decisions are made which have an effect on the value of property, from planning to care home regulations. I believe that this sort of argument has frequently been given short shrift by noble and learned Lords, among many others, over the years.
The final argument is that ECHR challenges would provide certain grounds for defeat. I do not believe that this is the case. There is no greater risk than with much property-related legislation that regulates relations between landlord and tenant. As I outlined before, there are a number of statutes that relate to this. These challenges—not that I have been able to identify many—
have not been successful. Learned counsel we have consulted does not agree with the case law justifications that have been mooted. I believe that one case in the UK on the grounds for a landlord to have a right to vacant possession has been cited. Two other cases on blight and rental values and pre-emptive rights relating to situations in other countries, which came before the court for judgment 21 and 25 years ago, are in my view and that of counsel not sufficient to strengthen the Government’s argument. Our view is that similar UK law is robust and has never been struck down. It is not generally challenged, and there are reasons for that. Adopting a transfer of title trigger is entirely proportionate and has legal precedent.
The Government need to consider their position on this one and come back to the House with a much clearer and greater explanation of their position. We are happy to allow further legal debate if they are willing to publish the advice, but we say this with a practical consideration, too. The legal arguments we have been presented with have been very widespread, so the cost to us of securing formal opinions from leading counsel across the areas of contention has been pretty vast. In many ways, this seems to replicate much of the Government’s intention in the Bill to equalise the information and resource asymmetry between a small business and big business. While I do not always wish to refer to the Opposition Benches as a small business, in this case, it would certainly be very helpful for us to have the publication of that advice as it would help us clarify and make our contribution much more precise and meaningful when coming back to the Government.
The Government’s position on this needs much greater detailed scrutiny. I do not believe that the Bill as it stands on these issues would be consistent—with any justification—with the intentions of the Commons amendment. We should not allow the Bill back without addressing this flaw. It would be deeply flawed if we sent it back to the Commons in the knowledge that it should be, and would be likely to be, challenged.