The Wellcome Trust has certainly done that but I was referring at that moment to the ministry and the Minister. However, the Wellcome Trust has not gone to experts in European law; it went to an expert that it chose. I am perfectly happy about that but it is only one of a series of opinions, which are contrary one to another.
I started with this point because of my concern about the families. It seems that it would not be a good beginning for this change if, immediately afterwards, the large number of Members of the European Parliament —from the right to the far left—who have said that they would see this as so clearly contrary to European law seek to refer it to the courts. That would not start this off very well. The real question is why the Government have not taken the steps which would enable us all to accept that this was legal. I do not understand why they have not done that, so my first questions to my noble friend are: why was that not done and why, even after we asked for it, did the ministry not go out and see that it had exterior and clear European advice, so that we would know where we were?
That is of course only the first part of it; the second is a question of safety. I have said that if we talked about transferring the spindle from one egg to another, I would not have any ethical objection. Indeed, it would be the opposite; I would want to support it. I ought to say that, because one noble Lord, who I know is going to speak later on, at an earlier meeting said,
“Well, he only says all those things because he’s a Roman Catholic”. I think I will face that. Those Members of your Lordships’ House who took part in the proceedings on the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill will remember that I spent a good deal of time supporting the Government’s position on that.
4.45 pm
I do not think anyone can complain that I am somehow in the thrall of some exterior power. I do not think anybody should suggest that I was other than willing to rebel on those things that I thought right. If there is any doubt about that, the Chief Whip will say that that is rather a wider rebellion on many other issues. So I hope no one will say that I am putting this case for any reason other than the one that I put forward. I put it forward because I believe that this House has a parliamentary duty to ensure that the legislation stands up. I do not accept the argument of some that this is a matter for only the experts and the scientists.
Many will remember that, as Minister for Agriculture, I dealt for four years with the BSE crisis. I spent a great deal of time listening to the scientists, standing up for the scientists and getting it in the neck almost every day by refusing to do the unscientific, which I was asked to do. It gave me a great respect for scientists, but it was my responsibility as a Minister to ensure that Parliament made the fundamental decisions. It is not up to anybody—even an organisation as distinguished as the one that will have this responsibility—to make the final decision about safety. That is, as Dr Harris, an old opponent in the other House, made quite clear, for Parliament to decide.
I come to this problem by saying that Parliament very nearly did not get much of a decision here anyway, because we were going to do it around the corner. So there would have been no contribution. That is why I am sorry we called it a killing Motion. It is not that at all: it is intended to give us this debate.
Parliament, however, must recognise that there are real doubts about safety. At the very last moment, we heard some information today. There has been, of course, an attempt to use one of these two mechanisms. It took place in China. The result was an abortion, a stillbirth and a child who died immediately: three—all dead. As a result, China banned the procedure. I discovered today, in answer to a Question, that the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority has not even asked for the evidence from China about how that happened, why it happened, why that decision was taken and whether what those who do not wish this matter to be raised say is true: that it was nothing to do with the technique but was to do with other exterior matters. It is not acceptable to tell the country that this is safe when we have not even asked for the evidence from the one occasion on which it has been used, and upon which three babies died.
Secondly, there has been a lot of usage of words. I try not to get myself into any of those difficulties, but it is quite clear that most people expected that there would be a complete test on at least one set of animals that were rather closer to human beings than mice. Of the two techniques, the one that gives me some problems has been performed only on mice. However, there is a test under way at this moment on more advanced
animals, if we are allowed to use such a phrase. Macaques have been given the technique and it appears to have worked and produced healthy babies. However, we do not yet know whether those babies themselves can reproduce. We will not have a long period to wait but we do not know the answer yet.
We have a huge responsibility to these mothers who cannot bear a well baby, but we also have a responsibility to the baby that they bear. What a terrible comment it would be if those who longed to have a baby and were therefore able to have it gave birth to a child who could not have a baby. That would be unacceptable. Yet when we had discussions with those who wanted to convince me—this is the thing that appals me—the scientist concerned said, and I quote, “Well, what’s wrong with sterility anyway? I’m sterile”. The public out there do not realise it is being seriously suggested that it does not matter whether these children are sterile. I am sorry, but that is not what the public think. They think we will ensure that the children and the mothers are properly protected.
I am very concerned about this. In the end, if it all goes wrong, it will be no use for us to say, “I took the opposite view”. I was one of the 16 Conservative Members of Parliament who voted against the Iraq war. I want to tell the House that there is no satisfaction in being able to say, “I was right”, or, “I proved you wrong”. The same is true here. I do not want to say at the end, “I was right to ask for a bit more care”.
What I am asking for is very simple. The Minister says, perfect reasonably, that we must not hold this up as some future Government may not be as enthusiastic about it as we are. I must say to him that I can think of no Government who, if a Joint Committee of the two Houses recommended that we should go ahead, would do anything other than put it before the House. Already, he has had a chance to get much more support by allowing the House what it ought to have: some ability to choose between these two techniques. I have asked why we cannot choose the technique that is ethically acceptable to so many but must have them bundled up in this way. The answer, I am afraid, is about money. Because some people have been investing in one technique and others in another, we want to ensure that both will be able to be used. I do not find that acceptable as an answer but it is the only one that I have had so far. It is tied up in a very careful phrase: that it will enable the authority to decide which of the techniques is “most appropriate in the circumstances of the woman concerned”. There is no appropriateness in the circumstances of the woman concerned; the appropriateness is about whether this or that laboratory is available to do it and has invested the resources to make it possible.
We ought to have been able to make a choice in this House. We were denied that, even though we asked for it. The Government seem determined to ensure that these things are not decided by this House but are packaged in a way that means we are not able to choose.
There are many people in this House who do not have a worry about the use of embryos. I recognise that. However, I also recognise that we have a duty to take with us the majority of people if that is humanly possible. To do that, certain simple things are required.
Clearly, the public are worried. I know that it is fashionable to be rude about public opinion polls. Indeed, so rude were some officials that they ran rather close to the libel laws. However, the truth is that in the ComRes test of public opinion, which was a direct test asking questions that the public would understand about things that they have read in the newspapers, the majority of people were unhappy about this; up to 90% said that it should not go ahead unless the tests had been completed. So far, the Government have not convinced the public of the sense of this.
Nor have the Government given us the opportunity to make a proper choice. The Government are presenting this today only because they were forced to do so after a 90-minute discussion in the House of Commons; otherwise this would have been gone through in the Moses Room, in a technique that is very convenient for the Executive.
So why should we ask for this to be fought over again? Your Lordships will know that I am an enthusiastic supporter of genetic modification of food. I am very unpopular among many environmentalists on this matter. Many of the modifications that we want involve very, very small amounts of genetic change, yet out there, there are marchers and campaigns. I think they are wrong because the testing and the science are clear. If the testing and the science in this case were as clear, complete and total, I believe that I would be able to vote for one of these two proposals. However, it is not.
Therefore I say to the Government that it is unacceptable to use a series of words that make it sound as though all is okay. I am fascinated by the refusal to use the phrase “genetic modification”. When it was asked whether one of these two techniques would be genetic modification if it were used on weasels, the Government accepted that it would. So it is genetic modification when it concerns weasels but not when it concerns human beings. All the way through, the arguments that could have won us over and got many more of this House on side have been refused. I say this with great pain because, in my view, this is the best Minister in this House and the man whom we most respect. I am sorry that we have not been able to join him in accepting this.
The proposal that I put forward is that we should have a committee that would be responsible for ensuring that this is legal and safe. I hope that it would also ensure that this House would have a proper choice about the ethical question. I am not raising that on this occasion, but there is a difference between the two proposals that are put forward. I hope that this House will take seriously this issue as we must protect three sets of people: the families—mothers and fathers—the children and the wider society. We would be the first country in the world to allow this. We have to be very careful that we do so with full and wholehearted support, and that we have fulfilled the safety needs.
No one is more aware that there is no such thing as absolute safety. I refer to the arguments over BSE. All you can do is make it as safe as possible by doing all the things that are necessary to see that you have covered every eventuality, and then you have to step out. My own family motto is “Duc in altum”: “launch out into the deep”. However, you do not launch out
into the deep unless you have made absolutely sure that you have taken all the possible different issues into account.
5 pm
The reason I ask this House to reject the Government’s proposition, and to insist that safety and law be looked at again and that the terms also be reconsidered, is not because I do not want to help these men and women who are so affected or because I have an ethical objection to one of the two proposals before us, but because I want this to work. I want it to work in a way that will enable other countries to follow us and to provide this for women who need it so much.
Is it too much to ask that we complete the tests, that we learn from the Chinese why the only time one of these two techniques has been used, they were so appalled by the results that they banned them—they had very clear evidence, which we can have—and that we have absolute assurance on the matter of the European law? We can then all do what is best, and if it goes wrong, we can say, honestly, that we took the best steps and did what was right at the time. That is the only thing human beings can ever do. If we are wrong then, that is due to the wrongness of human nature, and not the wrongness of avoiding what it is necessary to do to make us as safe as is humanly possible. I therefore hope that this House will accept that what could be the shortest of delays is a necessary part of making sure that none of us comes back and says, “We allowed something to happen that should never have happened”.